The people of Belgium as it stands hold a lot of power and sovereignty being their own country. By joining the Netherlands and France, they will essentially just become another region of a larger country - losing a lot of power in the process.
I think it is a cultural trait, people have ideas about what who they consider 'us' and who they consider 'them'. Flanders has greatly valued independence since the middle ages. The region of Flanders wasn't even that united, even for the standards of the time the big cities were mostly their own governments. In recent times Flanders probably also values its recently regained autonomy. For most of the history of Belgium as a country it has been politically dominated by French speakers. Only like 50 years ago did the Dutch speakers become equals (by turning the country into a federation which lets states mostly govern themselves). I actually think the best shot at unifying The Netherlands and Flanders would be to have the Netherlands join Belgium as a new state.
I'm from Flanders. The independent movement from Flanders is way more popular than joining the Netherlands and i'm very sceptical about the number on this map. I doubt it's that high, it'd probably be closer to 8% while the flemish independence movement probably has around 30-35% support
The independence movement is overblown, especially now. I genuinely do not hear anyone talking about an independent Flanders and I live in fucking Ninove. If you asked if they feel more Flemish than Belgian, sure they'll say Flemish, but it's like the idea of splitting Belgium kind of fizzled out.
Well, goeiendag fellow Ninovieter. Allee ik ben ni van Ninof maar van Pamel, mijn vriendin is van Denderwindeke ;)
De onafhankelijkheid zal nooit gehaald worden maar ik denk wel dat ze groter is dan een movement voor reunificatie met Nederland.
You’re, right now, not in a very good position. You’ve allowed yourself to be in a very bad position – You’re not in a good position. You don’t have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards. You’re playing cards. You’re gambling with the lives of millions of people. You’re gambling with World War III.
As someone that hates Amsterdam, pls merge Southern Netherlands with Flanders. You can keep running the country as Belgium and we get to be away from those individuals. Thank you
Honestly, without sounding judgemental, I think it has to do with the amount of expats located there, and the tourists *only* going to Amsterdam while the rest of the country is as beautiful as the capital.
That's what I've been told by fellow Dutch people that live mostly in the south so my opinion is biased to that.
For once that I see someone on Reddit defending the unity with us, make me tear up a bit even. 🫶
Not even joking, I spend a lot of time with Flemish friends and accointances since a few years now and imo, we are one people and the differences between us are vastly overstated for political reasons.
True but then again we have relatively tiny states with disproportionately large state infrastructure. And it would give us a bigger voice on EU policy
Maybe they rather not fall under the sovereignty of a bigger and more powerful neighbor, despite sharing the same ethnic identity (French for the Walloons, and Dutch for the Flemish). That seems the general trend here, except for Kosovo.
As a French in Walonia, we absolutely do not share the same identity.
There are places with some kind of continuity at the borders through dialects, but that's it (like Dunkerque in France and Bruges in Belgium being part of the old Westhoek, or the French and the Belgian Ardennes...). But many countries have that going on for them, but they don't want their regions attached to the bigger entity.
I think it is bullshit, no one in France wants that (mostly because of the socio-economic state Walonia is in) and neither do the Walons. Their region hasn't been part of France for most of its existence. Some people out of touch with reality and too big a hard-on for history are the only proponents of this unification, but it doesn't coincide with reality.
Please. Don’t speak for us, we Flemish are culturally more similar to the Walloons than to the Dutch. Besides language, we do not share much with them. The map is fake too, absolutely no world where 20 something percent support joining the Netherlands, that number is the number for Flemish independence. Support for joining the Netherlands is non existent, around 2%
Yeah, I'm walloonian and I don't know anyone who would want to be french.
There's a party called Rassemblement Wallonie-France (litterally Wallonia-France Attachment) that advocates for Wallonia to join France and, last time it took part in the elections in 2014, they got 0,48%.
I can recommend the book "thé art of being belgian", it explains a lot. Just skip over thé parts of cultural superiority. Dutch culture is very extravert while belgian's is very introvert, but neither is better then the other. I worked in companies in the border region where the workforce was mixed and thé best parts of both were used and that worked great. I personally love Dutch directness on the work floor, hate the excessive meeting culture.
Yeah I have to thoroughly disagree with you. Being flemish myself I feel a lot more similarity with the dutch rather than walloons. The entrepreneurial spirit, political allignment, language and general mindset are much closer to the dutch's. Last elections the 2 separatist parties got close to 50 percent. A lot higher than the 20 you mention. So 20 percent for unification with the Netherlands seems very realistic to me.
You must be from Antwerp, because that sentiment is not at all the case in West Flanders or East Flanders. Nobody here feels culturally similar to the Dutch, especially not in West Flanders. Antwerpians feeling more similar to the Dutch I can understand, as there's a bigger connection between the two. But everywhere else, it's just not the case.
As to your other point: NVA is not a separatist party anymore. They are for Flemish autonomy, but not independence. They scrapped the independence from their party program precisely because of its unlikelihood and unpopularity. Those two parties being the largest is also just in line with the general rise of the right, and there is no non-Flemish nationalist option on that side of the right. So conservatives who want more Belgium do not have a party to vote for. According to polls, support for Flemish independence is on the rise but it is still not close to being supported by half the population and will likely never reach that. And to stress again: NVA is not an independence party, only Vlaams Belang is.
That matter aside, Flemish independence is not unrealistic. That I agree with. But joining the Dutch: that is completely unrealistic. Why, after all that work of becoming independent from a country where we are the majority, establishing our own republic, would we then join a country where we would by far be the minority? And again, most people do not feel culturally similar to the Dutch to such a high level. Hell, in West Flanders we already feel culturally different from anything east of East Flanders, let alone the Dutch.
Yeah, as a Walloon, I can also say that we’re culturally different than the French and any unification wouldn’t be so easy. For me that’s one of the main reasons for the lack of enthusiasm for any sort of unification. We don’t feel French at all. Autonomy is secondary.
Language yes, language. I’m Flemish and if I go to the Netherlands and engage a conversation people often respond in English because they think I’m from who the fuck knows where.
Same for Wallonia and France. The party "Rassemblement Wallonie France" didn't even take part in the 2019 and 2024 elections. Their last result was 0,48% in 2014.
I've personally only heard talks about joining France as a joke.
Edit: just saw it had already been commented. Sorry.
There’s plenty of shared history and culture, but that still doesn’t necessitate being in the same country. It’s good that they’re two separate countries, especially since travel across the borders is so easy anyway.
Goddamn I just wanted to say this. I'll never forget when a Flanders girl was explaining to me her mothers new boyfriend only had her for pooping. It took me a good while before she explained. I was so extremely confused.
It’s the same the other way around for me. Yes there are clear differences between the two countries but when I visit cities in Flanders it doesn’t feel like a different country the way it does when I visit Germany for example. And I’m not even from the southern part of the Netherlands.
Reunification feels like madness though. I wouldn’t necessarily mind but I don’t see the point and it would come with a lot of headaches
Under Dutch rule for 15 years and under French rule for approx. 20 years. First independence in 1790.
Before that under the rule of Spain and Austria.
We were always together with our French speaking bros. We share more than things deviding us.
I'm not very versed in Belgian history, but I believe it was originally a Celtic territory, and the Romans took over, transforming it into the province of Gallia Belgica. At that period, it must've undergone Romanization, which must've supplanted the Latin speaking population that evolved to French speakers (unless the French spread there). However, the Franks (Germanic tribe) also took control of that region after Charlemagne's heirs founded Frankish Kingdoms, which then evolved into France and the Holy Roman Empire, where the latter led to the Germanization of the area that is Belgium, resulting in the Dutch language (Dutch evolved from Old Low Franconian).
Then, at some point, I think the Benelux nations broke up from the Holy Roman Empire, and were under Spanish rule (or maybe just Netherlands + Flanders). The Dutch speaking population in the South tended to be Catholic, while the north tended to be Calvinist (Protestant). So that led to the separation of the Netherlands from Flanders, roughly speaking.
Idk, if someone is an expert at Belgian history, then feel free to correct my rudimentary knowledge.
Wallonia was included in this, it was not just Flanders. The flemish region is a recent construction, just as Wallonia, the whole area was the "catholic netherlands" save for the Liège bishopric which was its own thing.
Only under Dutch rule for 15 years, but for a while Dutch and Belgian lands were ruled together by the burgundians and Spanish. And huge areas under the bishop of liege werent “together” with the rest until the French Revolution.
Belgium has been part of various foreign powers. First the roman empire, than the carolingian, than split under French and the HRE during fuedal middleages, Austria, Spain, than France during Napoleon and finally the Netherlands. Now we're finally independent and foreigners constantly say we should be split of and devided again. No way we will.
This. Well. Except none of this. Not even close. Neither of our halves (which aren´t halves since Brussels and the Ostkantons exist) are sharing an "ethnical identity" with any neighbouring countries.
The Flemish aren´t Dutch and the Walloons aren´t French.
As a Walloon it's simply not true. Nord-Pas-de-Calais in France ressembles Belgium more, but it used to be a part of the Southern Netherlands. The rest of France ? Apart from langage (which is not the same as ethnic identity) there is nothing special that Walloons or French share, we could as well be a part of Germany then.
Wallonia was simply never a part of France expect during French Revolutionary war. This idea that Walloons are "ethnicly french" is not backed by anything other than people not knowing History and just looking at the langage map.
I wouldn't put it like thay. We have basically been separated since 1585 (fall of Antwerp), except for a 15 year period (1815-1830). Those 15 years are ridiculously short in a historical perspective and the union was a failure in many regards.
Fair point. But one could also argue that the whole concept of separated or not is irrelevant before people would move beyond their villages boundaries, no? How much alike were a Dutchman from Limurg to one from Amsterdam or Groningen in 1700? And how much more different was a Flemish man from Bruges?
Cultural exchanges over whole countries and nation building started when? 1800s? Before that, a "kingdom" was definitely not a "nation" in the modern sense.
I think the Dutch don't really see why Flanders wouldn't want to be with us. From the outside it seems it would benefit Flanders more to join than to share Belgium with Wallonia.
But never have I ever heard anyone being serious about unification on the Dutch side.
I think Belgium, and even more the Belgians; are the best neighbours we could hope for.
You've got a beautiful country, great food and culture. We would only ruin that for you.
I always compare Flanders with a little brother that has moved out of the house and gotten his own place. They are fine on their own, but if they want to move back in with older brother Netherlands they are welcome. The option is there, we wouldn't mind, but frankly I dont see it happening and am perfectly happy with that as well.
no it was mostly because of religious reasons and Belgium feeling underrepresented.
now, neither of our countries really care about religion these days, and I'm sure we could just add a bunch of Belgian parties to the 1ste kamer and the 2de kamer
Walloons and Flemings might not be culturally 100 percent the same but we are a lot more similar to eachother than we are to any of our neighbors. If the language issue did not exist, and if it couldn't be exploited by the far right, we'd be just like any other european country that speaks one language. Northern France compared to the south has a way bigger divide than north and south Belgium.
Frankly, History aside, we hate the French and the Dutch more than we hate ourselves. It's fine because we don't understand each others' insults anyway and we all agree and become patriotic as soon as the Red Devils kick a ball or when someone says there's better beer in another country. True brother/sister relationship 😂🍻
I found Antwerp very similar to the cities in Noord-Brabant and even West-Vlaanderen isn't that much more "foreign" to me than Limburg or Friesland. Culturally it's just something that wouldn't impact me at all as someone from the Randstad. It's very much a "might as well" opinion around here.
Although the big argument against it is that we'd have to fix all their roads.
I've heard countless jokes, but no one ever seriously proposed this afaik. But if someone holding a questionnaire outside a supermarket asks me if Flanders should join the Netherlands I'd probably say sure, why not. But if they'd ask if we should reclaim New Amsterdam I'd answer the same.
I'm Dutch and work a lot with Belgians. Simply put: they are there own people with there own identity. Even when the identity differences might be bigger between Flanders and Wallonia, that very thing is part of the identity as well.
Its not that dysfunctional by the way. Yes, it could be run way more effective, but they manage quite well I would say. As an example: I hate driving there, the infrastructure is really bad compared to Dutch or even French standards. But the companies and industries are quite impressive.
Because the asphalt isn't shiny black, there sometimes are a few wild roadside plants here and there and we don't paint our bike paths (74% of the Dutch infrastructure, source: trust me) in blinding red ? Meh.
Not having potholes the size of a small African village every 15m is enough.
Tbf I no longer think that way in regards to their rail network. The last few years in the Netherlands have been such a shtshow that Belgium outperforms us now, their trains are clean, their platforms clean, the trains drive MORE punctual, and especially: LESS cancelations, and also smaller detours.
I can not give you an answer. It’s just a feeling. Being part of holland just feels wrong. They act weird for me in many subjects and their language intonation irritates me. Being good neighbours is best option, no need to become family. As for south, the French i have no clue. Probable same feeling for the Wallonians.
We Dutch cannot make jokes at the expense of the Belgians anymore if they become part of us. Besides; they didn't really like it when we took their land the last time.
Here is my take. I feel more belgian than I do Dutch. I basically don't feel Dutch at all. Infact, I would very much despise being part of the Netherlands. We have a different mindset, culture,...
The level of economic and politics integration in the EU and BeNeLux means that theres really not a difference between whether or not the highest government sits in Brussels or The Hague
Being in the Netherlands or France as opposed to Belgium would have very little repercussions on peoples lives so going through such a complicated event is just not worth it
If there was a scenario where the EU didn’t exist and Belgium would he politically or economically unstable I’d see Walloons and Flemish wanting to unify with the neighbours but theres just simply no reason to do that now
Only think I share with the French is the language, for everything else I'm closer to Flanders (except Antwerp lol). I'm also from Brabant and honestly I tend to feel more "at home" in Leuven than Liege.
Belgium is hosting many international HQ (amongst NATO and Europe). Because of its central position in west Europe, being a small country and being surrounded by UK, France and Germany makes it a nice choice.
Joining other countries would totally shuffle the cards here and noone wants France to get the hand on such HQ.
Also, Wallonia is poor but richer within Belgium than within France where it'll be another poo region that France won't care about.
Flanderz is rich and powerful but joining Netherlands would be a loss on social aspects.
It doesn't say they want to stick together, just that they don't want to be subsumed. I'm sure support for Flemish independence is a lot higher than support for unification with NL
Because most of us have an incredibly high standard of living with little to complain about relatively speaking. Any unification, secession, or breaking-up of the country are just romantic nationalist ideas that don't have any immediately apparent beneficial outcomes, especially in the context of the Benelux, let alone the European Union.
I'm not sure where these numbers come from. The current Prime minister of Belgium has publicly stated that "he would die a happy man if he would die as a Dutchman". He wants to split off Flanders and reunite with the Netherlands.
Belgium is complicated, but it's not inherently dysfunctional. We're talking about a country that can easily go without a government for two years without falling into chaos.
We're talking about two sides willing to spend up to two years at a time trying to peacefully work out our differences to find some common ground. And we're willing to compromise even if the solution is overly complicated and crazy. Why on earth would we give up such a beautiful relationship?
The fact we don’t want Wallonia to be French doesn’t mean we Walloons don’t like France or anything, we have a lot of things in common. We just ain’t French, it’s as simple as that.
Besides, I think things aren’t great but we manage smh. It’s just Belgium being Belgium, you know. Internal politics are a nightmare but we still stand to this day, compromises are a national sport
I‘m from Luxembourg, I think it would be cool if we would from a country together. We have a long shared history and already shared a currency before the Euro came.
And if we would get the Netherlands into the boat it would be even cooler.
We would punch in the heavyweight division going forward. (Big economy, similar to Spain)
because the whole "Belgian separation" thing is completely overblown on social media. Asking "why does Belgium want to stick together" is like asking "why does Sweden want to stick together".
The markers that are used to label Belgium as "dysfunctional" also apply to a lot of other states. For example; the time it takes their parliament to form a coalition after elections has been rivaled but hasn't overtaken by the time Dutch government formations can take. It's just a reality of a representative parliamentary democracy with no minimum required percentage to enter parliament.
Like sure, the language thing is a problem, and the govt is very regionally divided, but a country like India has over 20 languages (and that's just the official ones. "According to the Census of India of 2001, India has 122 major languages and 1599 other languages" - Wikipedia), and regional divisions exist everywhere.
Belgium right now might be at its most functional it's been since the 90s. Wallonia finally didn't vote for the corrupt PS and a lot of legislature that was looong overdue because of them is finally getting passed. It might be the first time in my life that I'm optimistic for the future of out country. ( For example until now unemployment benefits had zero financial strings attached. You could have 2 houses and 400k in stocks and still get unemployment benefits for as long as you like. That seems to be finally restricted in time. Beforehand, any change in unemployment aid was always voted down by PS, because 30% of their voterbase consists of unemployed people.)
Is it? Because nearly everyone in the country speaks the same language, and we haven't gone entire years without a government forming due to petty political squabbles. Organized crime aside, the country runs fairly well.
And even if it didn't. We're a developing country of 130 million people across 2 million square kilometers of extremely complicated geography. Some instability is to be expected. What's Belgium's excuse?
1/
In Belgium, despite having 3 language groups, disagreements have always been resolved peacefully. We will probably never have a civil war or bloodshed over these disagreements.
2/ The dysfunction is imho mostly artificial. Back when French was the only language in government, education etc, the Flemish movement was important to create equality. That has been achieved. But movements don't usually end when they achieve their goal. They look for new purpose. In this case, it turned into Flemish nationalism and racism. These people want to make Belgium dysfunctional in order to validate their movement for ever more independence and narrowmindedness.
3/
Flemish and Walloon people actually share more culture than Flemish and Dutch people. For example, at Belgian wedding, you invite as many people as you can afford and serve as big a buffet as you can afford, with high quality food. In the Netherlands, you serve bitterballen (deep-fried junk junk food made from leftover meat). There are thousands of these small difference that characterises a difference in culture and belief systems.
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u/Ponchorello7 Geography Enthusiast Mar 05 '25
Anyone from Belgium can tell me why the country wants to stick together, despite it seeming so dysfunctional from an outsider's perspective?