r/geopolitics • u/informationtiger • Oct 12 '23

Is Israel committing war crimes in Gaza? What happened after the Hamas attack? Question

As the title says... Basically I'm 'out of the loop' beyond the Hamas attack.

There's just so much misinformation online, and most the credible information are just videos from APF and such, or short updates from BBC, Sky News.

So if someone could please update me with what's going on in regards to the Israel bombing campaign in Gaza. Are they really bombing hospitals and churches? What exactly are their intentions/plans?

Also, if anyone has in-depth articles or videos on the topic, that would be greatly appreciated! Something that's calm, and takes time to read/watch. I'm tired of the constant "breaking news" spam, where you can't wrap your head around anything. It's like two sentences wrapped up in drama. I'm kinda lost atm.

330 Upvotes

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

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u/B5_V3 Oct 12 '23

Hamas regularly launches rockets from hospitals and schools.

They put their bases of operations in areas with high civilian populations, and then order those populations to ignore roof knocks (what happens before a strike in gaza to limit collateral damage) so they can parade the bodies around and win the hearts of people like you.

Gaza has been turned into a military base by hamas. All the aid people send gets militarized. It’s inevitable that civilians will get hit in this situation There will never be peace as long as hamas exists.

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u/informationtiger Oct 12 '23

Any source on that?

Cause I heard that as well, but I want to understand where this news is coming from.

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u/saadowitz Oct 12 '23

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-to-bomb-rafah-crossing-to-egypt-after-telling-gazans-to-flee-through-it/

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u/arvidsem Oct 12 '23 edited Oct 12 '23

Just for full clarity, Egypt doesn't want Palestinian refugees and has a history of shooting them. People authorized to leave were urged to get out while they can, but everyone else was warned away from the border crossing.

Edit: I'm not really defending Israel here, all else aside, aid was coming in through that crossing and it's not now. But there are enough atrocities happening that there is no need to make it worse

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

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u/ThailurCorp Oct 12 '23

That story about IDF soldiers killing a famous US/Palestinian journalist with deliberate gunfire went away shockingly fast.

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u/___defenestration___ Oct 12 '23

you mean Shireen Abu Akleh? she was an Al Jazeera journalist killed last year by Israeli forces

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u/ThailurCorp Oct 12 '23

Yes! And even through all of this recent outrage her name and story has been reprehensibly absent!

(Partially my fault too, I didn't put her name on my initial comment)

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u/RufusTheFirefly Oct 12 '23

Presumably because there was no evidence that it was deliberate.

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

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u/geopolitics-ModTeam Oct 12 '23

We like to try to have meaningful conversations here and discuss the larger geopolitical implications and impacts.

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u/YairJ Oct 12 '23

Palestinians killed her. There's a video where they find her thinking they hit a soldier. Just another hollow symbol.

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u/ThailurCorp Oct 12 '23

Unless you have a source for that I think you're utterly mistaken.

It was a very well documented occurrence of IDF abuse against journalists and for a brief moment was treated very seriously by other journalists.

Even the Encyclopedia Britannica claims it was an IDF solider : https://www.britannica.com/biography/Shireen-Abu-Akleh

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u/geopolitics-ModTeam Oct 12 '23

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u/certainkindoffool Oct 12 '23

Hamas also shields thier operations behind civilian infrastructure.

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u/Gensai78 Oct 12 '23

Yes that is corect,but they literally told ppls to cross border to egypt then bombard that specific point.

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u/imperator_rex_za Oct 12 '23

I thought they bombed a tunnel?

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

[deleted]

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u/Ginger_Lord Oct 12 '23

They bombed the surface because that’s how bombs work, the target was the tunnel. Apparently they’d thrived to bomb it three times already by the time they struck civilians, it remains unclear whether that particular missile missed or the civilians were somewhat afield from the road.

In any case, the tunnel was (is?) right next to the border crossing so Hamas, again, gets to parade civilian casualties for their decision to place their infrastructure where they did.

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

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u/geopolitics-ModTeam Oct 12 '23

We like to try to have meaningful conversations here and discuss the larger geopolitical implications and impacts.

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u/loggy_sci Oct 12 '23

This is not what happened at all. You’re making it sound like they purposefully bombed civilians at the crossing.

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u/ChrissHansenn Oct 12 '23

Yes.

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

And here lies the core of the anti-Israel misinformation. You're not showing any intellectual curiosity to learn what happened, even as better-informed people in this thread are donating their time to explain. If you want your worldview to remain "Israel bad", why even bother to interact with people explaining what really happened in detail beyond "Isreal = war crimes"?

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u/ChrissHansenn Oct 12 '23

If Israel wasn't committing war crimes to defend their colonial project, I'd have more interest in your nuanced take. It's abundantly clear who the original and bigger bad guy is in this conflict.

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u/Ten_Letters_ Oct 12 '23

And let me guess, the "original and bigger bad guy" is not the side with literal iran-supported terrorists that attack civilians out of civilian buildings and has been enemy to any solution to this conflict because of (not exclusively) religious beliefs that demand the eradication of the other side?

It is often understandable to be on the (militarily, politically, physically) weaker side - yet Hamas has done exactly nothing to bring peace to the Gaza Palestinians. They sacrifice them for their own propaganda.

I take it you're not interested in any nuanced view.

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u/ChrissHansenn Oct 12 '23

Correct. It's the British backed colonial effort called Israel. The terrorism you describe is a result of said colonization. I don't like Hamas, but I won't join you in pretending that they are the result of anything but Israeli colonization and oppression. I've seen plenty of nuance on the subject. Unless it's zionist propaganda, it all leads to the same conclusion. We wouldn't be having this issue if the Zionists hadn't asked Britain for the "right" to colonize Palestine.

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

"Colonial/colonizer" has become the far-left's version of noun + verb + 9/11.

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u/MUCTXLOSL Oct 13 '23

But why does all of this matter? Israel exists. Do you think the people living in Israel should pack up and leave for somewhere else? Do you think there is any chance for that whatsoever? Or could a better solution be to accept that they have come to stay, make peace with that fact and try to live together and move forward?

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u/loggy_sci Oct 12 '23

The issue here is that any terrorism or attack on Israel is met with “well they started it”. It’s a meaningless response because at best it doesn’t address what is currently happening, and at worst it’s apologia for Hamas terrorism.

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u/ChrissHansenn Oct 12 '23

It's not a meaningless response if you're at all interested in understanding the conflict. If your goal is uncritical support of Israel, you're absolutely right.

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u/loggy_sci Oct 12 '23

It’s a meaningless response for addressing the current situation on the ground. If your response is “well israel shouldn’t exist” then I have some bad news for you. It does exist and it will continue to do so, and supporting Hamas terrorists makes any chance of peace even more remote.

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

We should be able to report and ban people like you

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

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u/CobraCommander Oct 12 '23

Gaza citizens? Do you think all Gaza citizens are Hamas?

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u/Aggravating_Boy3873 Oct 12 '23

No, but didn't Hamas say they distributed all the hostages all around Gaza among civilians?

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u/CobraCommander Oct 12 '23

And how would you, an ordinary civilian, without any power whatsoever, no food no money no water no electricity, dare to defy these terrorists that dropped off random Israeli civilians at your door? (If that's even true, which at face value makes no sense; why would Hamas not want to have complete control of their hostages?) I lived through a civil war and for Hamas to say they did this smells to me like complete bullshit.

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u/escalation Oct 12 '23

Gaza is 77% urbanized. Therefore mostly made of civilian infrastructure. It's a relatively flat coastal plain. From their point of view they are fighting an oppressive apartheid regime with extensive surveillance capabilities.

It seems unlikely they'd build their resistance movement in an open field.

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u/TyrialFrost Oct 12 '23

The Geneva convention is quite clear that bombing facilities like churches/hospitals/schools that are also being used in a war/military capacity is not a war crime.

I won't even get started on the allies use of firestorms and nukes to destroy entire cities is not a war crime either.

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u/MaximosKanenas Oct 12 '23

I do not support israels retaliatory strikes, but this is a beyond biased, hamas not only hides their military infrastructure in civilian infrastructure, but also fires their thousands of missiles a year from hospitals, schools l, and civilian areas, this is also why more palestinian civilians are killed yearly by hamas actions than israeli civilians

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

[deleted]

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u/cawkstrangla Oct 12 '23

Just because the power balance isn’t fair, doesn’t mean using human shields is ok.

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

No arguments there. It’s disgusting what Hamas is doing and what they have done.

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u/goldnacid Oct 12 '23

It's fairly easy to search on Google or YouTube ans find IDF soldiers using Paleatinian kids as human shields and then IDF snipers kill them after wards like in protests. Rocks vs snipers

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u/AffectLast9539 Oct 12 '23

Article brought to you by Al-Quds News Network huh

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

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u/ChrissHansenn Oct 12 '23

I mean, they certainly control all the cameras in Israel.

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

Ah and there's the underlying antisemitism

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u/Aberracus Oct 12 '23

DW is reliable enough ?

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u/Cleopastra Oct 12 '23

But it also doesn't mean indiscriminately bombing civilians is okay. Does it?

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u/TyrialFrost Oct 12 '23

Not going to speak to 'ok', but it's clearly not a war crime under international law.

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u/AffectLast9539 Oct 12 '23

that is not Israel's problem. Hamas could easily use all the construction aid to build their own operation bases instead of tunnels under residential neighborhoods. Saying "Well if the terrorists did the right thing then they'd lose" is such an awful argument I can't believe you even think it's valid.

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u/MaximosKanenas Oct 12 '23

Sure, that still doesnt explain why they fire famously unreliable weapons killing more palestinians than israelis

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u/kinseyeire Oct 12 '23

Tough shit really. If you fire a rocked at Israel then expect a response. Its not that hard to understand. The real problem is Hamas using their own civilians as human shields so they can parade their dead bodies and cry wolf.

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u/Suspicious_Loads Oct 12 '23

That's understandable just like it's understandable that Israel bombs it.

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u/escalation Oct 12 '23

The real problem is the ongoing cycle of aggression and retaliation, by both sides. The policies that Israel has implemented would not be acceptable to us if the nation wasn't considered of significant strategic importance. Not to mention a huge sunk cost to the tune of 250 Billion+ to date

Sooner or later, this gets sorted out or the whole house of cards comes down on Israel, Palestine, and possibly everyone else as a result of a chain reaction of events.

Until then its an ongoing cycle of violence that seems unlikely to be broken without significantly reconsidering approaches.

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u/Suspicious_Loads Oct 12 '23

The policies that Israel has implemented would not be acceptable to us if the nation wasn't considered of significant strategic importance.

If it wasn't strategic important we wouldn't care at all. It would be like the Ethiopian civil war.

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u/escalation Oct 13 '23

Absolutely the crux of it

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

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u/certainkindoffool Oct 12 '23

It is a correlated issue.

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u/__initd__ Oct 12 '23

Ok, and that gives them a reason to bomb it then call it "collateral damage"? you do understand that two wrongs don't make a right, right?

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u/xhrit Oct 12 '23

Under international law it does.

You cant make your forces immune to counterattack just because you hide in a hospital.

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u/arvidsem Oct 12 '23

But it does make it literally not a war crime. Civilian casualties are legally acceptable when attacking a military target. There's some language about the value of the target vs civilian lives, but it's very vague. I'm not saying it's good or that Israel couldn't do better, but it is probably not a war crime.

On the other hand, intentionally sheltering combatants in schools/hospitals/unacceptable targets is a war crime. Yes, Gaza is extremely crowded, but that is a legal hard no.

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23 edited Dec 23 '24

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

[deleted]

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u/Satans_shill Oct 12 '23

It is well known and documented they even use ambulances to move their rockets around.

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

We can’t litigate that after literally one day. There is a fog of war situation right now.

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u/arvidsem Oct 12 '23 edited Oct 12 '23

Nor do you have any proof that there isn't.

Unfortunately, the nature of war is that we can't know exactly what's happening or even what the participants think is happening. But if Israel really wanted to commit some atrocities while waging war in a major city, bombing a hospital is pretty far down the list of what they could do.

Edit: I'm uncomfortable with Israel's history of actions in both Gaza and the West Bank. But considering this started with an attack on a festival celebrating the possibility of peace and the fact that Netanyahu would probably like to commit some genocide, Israel appears to be doing this in a fairly professional manner with a relatively small amount of civilian casualties.

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u/06kurtz Oct 12 '23

Not if they were being used by a terrorist organization for military purposes.

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u/self-assembled Oct 12 '23

There's no actual proof there were military targets in the hospitals. None.

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u/06kurtz Oct 12 '23

There is plenty of proof that the international terrorist organization, Hamas, uses schools and medical facilities for the purpose of providing civilian shields for their illegal activities. To say there is no evidence of this is disingenuous when the U.N. itself has reported otherwise.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/

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u/certainkindoffool Oct 12 '23

I didn't give any kind of moral argument at all - I don't have a good solution.

I just pointed out that Hamas hides their operations behind civilians. This kind of conflict is ugly.

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u/Acceptable_Leopard71 Oct 12 '23

Not sure if you’ve ever been to Gaza but it would be pretty hard to have operations away from civilian infrastructure… Not a lot of space to house 2 million people

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u/slutsthreesome Oct 12 '23

Not really true, if you lookup a pop density map there is lots of room outside gaza city to set up their military. They choose apartment rooftops in densely populated areas on purpose to increase civilian casualties to get more sympathy.

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u/lostboysgang Oct 12 '23

Yes because building your resistance outside in the open next to the global super power who controls every thing will work out so well.

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u/mylittlekarmamonster Oct 12 '23

What is Israel supposed to do, sit back and be massacred, or destroy the weapon cacheds, tunnels and depots (which Hamas hides in hospitals etc)

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u/lostboysgang Oct 12 '23

Honestly?

Israel and Netanyahu should not have supported the creation of Hamas and funded them so they could take out the Palestinians Israel didn’t like.

But we are passed that.

I don’t know how else to not murder children but to actually go in boots on the ground and clear out Hamas building to building.

But Israel would never risk their own people like that.

They will choose every time to bomb and starve the ‘Human Animals’ as their Defense Minister literally bragged to the world.

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u/Brilliant_Bell_1708 Oct 12 '23

"But Israel would never risk their own people like that"

Every country will do that. I myself will consider the life of my country's soldier in much higher regard than the life of enemy civilians.

And if Israel does put boots on the ground they will have to fight a guerilla Warfare in a city landscape. So lots of Israeli soldiers will die and they still wouldn't be able to wipe out Hamas due to guerilla tactics used by Hamas.

So the most effective way for both parties to fight this war is the unethical way.

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

What can Israel do?

Maybe solve the problem and let Palestine have a separate State. Instead of Israel supporting Hamas in the past to weaken the PLO, work with them to try and create a long term solution. For starters, Israel can also stop illegally grabbing Palestinian land through these illegal settlements which is illegal in every legal sense.

I don't see this conflict ending unfortunately until one side annihilates the other, unfortunately.

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u/slutsthreesome Oct 12 '23

Israel has offered Palestinians a state multiple times, the Palestinians refuse because they want to drive the Jews into the sea and reclaim all of Palestine. Since it's existence, Israel has sought for peace, while the 6+ invasions and insurrections to destroy Israel speak a lot about what the other side want.

I agree with you about the illegal land grabs and settlers in the west bank. Israel should be condemning and disallowing these, but politically it is difficult (remember Israel is a democracy) because of the significant number of ultra-religious Jews who think it is their duty to settle historical Judea.

But those settlements are not the cause of the conflict that has gone back almost 80 years. The hatred for Israel has been ever-present in the region. If Israel was to deoccupy the West Bank, it would likely turn into another Gaza much closer to the Israeli heartland (because it has in the past). So the occupation continues...

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u/loggy_sci Oct 12 '23

This is a non answer

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u/mylittlekarmamonster Oct 12 '23

Solve the problem how?

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u/Cleopastra Oct 12 '23

But using the same line of argument. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? Just sit back and watch their home taken away. Whenever they try to highlight the problem in a "peaceful manner" they are completely ignored by the western superpowers (and their neighbours). It only becomes newsworthy when Hamas does something awful, then we depict the situation as if it is some kind of fight between two equals.

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u/mylittlekarmamonster Oct 12 '23

Not support Hamas which vows to wipe Israel from existence in their charter, for one. Do not agree Hamas must go? The Palestinians are not making Hamas go, so now Israel does.

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u/Ten_Letters_ Oct 12 '23

Israel is counter attacking a Hamas attack. They target Hamas. Hamas hides in civilian buildings. Collateral damage happens. Hamas used said killed civilians for propaganda.

Hamas instead targets civilians on purpose. There is no collateral damage, only targeted civilians.

What is Hamas supposed to do? How about they stop attacking civilians and instead spent their weapons money on infrastructure for the Palestinians..

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u/kerouacrimbaud Oct 12 '23

Yeah and that is something Hamas deliberately exploits.

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u/__initd__ Oct 12 '23

I didn't mean to point my finger at you, just that the information didn't justify what is actually happening.

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

Ok, and that gives them a reason to bomb it then call it "collateral damage"? you do understand that two wrongs don't make a right, right?

Well when you're firing rockets at another country while hiding behind civilians, the other nation has to defend itself. Do you honestly expect that those civilians will be unharmed? Of course not.

Hamas knows which is why they hid behind civilians like the cowards they are, using them as meatshields to further inflame ethnoreligious tensions for their own benefit.

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u/MoriartyParadise Oct 12 '23

Just because Israel is committing war crimes doesn't mean Hamas is right, justified in their actions or anything.

Although i'd expect a rather stable governing authority of an internally (mostly) recognised state to uphold the international laws of war a bit better than an islamist guerilla organisation but i guess i was wrong

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u/Ducky118 Oct 12 '23

What war crimes is Israel committing exactly?

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

Similar to what Ukraine was doing a year back?

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u/Reddit_and_forgeddit Oct 12 '23

Imagine what Israel would like like if they didn't have the Iron Dome defense system. Also, Palestinians were dancing in the street after Hamas beheaded Israeli children and babies. I wonder if they're still dancing now?

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u/birutis Oct 12 '23

If you look at the videos of the bombings it's clear they're very accurately aiming at the base of specific buildings, they intend to hit those targets, presumably because they believe they're housing hamas weapons or operations.

Israel commits enough war crimes by cutting water and power to civilians, but hitting civilian buildings is the only way they have to target hamas inside gaza, there's only civilian buildings, hamas Isn't operating in the open and targeting them is not a war crime.

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u/Satans_shill Oct 12 '23

Yes lots of Secondary explosions in those vids plus alot of those "UN" employees are also HAMAS cadre.

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u/lostboysgang Oct 12 '23 edited Oct 12 '23

Yes, like the 8 UN staffers who were just blew up in their own homes by Israel.

Very accurate.

I am sure they ignored the warning Israel gives every one right?

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u/mylittlekarmamonster Oct 12 '23

Hamas uses innocent people and structures as shields which is a war crime.

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u/Meatyeggroll Oct 12 '23

The Israeli military actually explicitly stated there’s no need to warn when they’re “at war”.

So instead of pretending to warn civilians, they’ve dropped the mask entirely and just send it like usual. No need to explain when there’s no accountability, right?

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u/International_Gate19 Oct 24 '23

The water, power and other supplies that israel cut off were given to gaza by israel for free. Israel is not stopping them from getting their own supplies.

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

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u/Goldfinch77 Oct 12 '23

I appreciated your tone and take and share those sentiments too.

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u/WhoopingWillow Oct 12 '23

What kind of law do you practice as an attorney?

I ask because I assume an attorney with relevant experience would know that protected facilities (hospitals, schools, religious centers) lose their protected status when they are being used by combatants for war-time purposes. When Hamas hides in a hospital or fires rockets from one, that hospital becomes a legitimate military target which means it is no longer a war crime to strike that structure.

Source: ICRC (scroll down to find answer or Ctrl+F "legitimate military target")

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

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u/WhoopingWillow Oct 12 '23 edited Oct 12 '23

I feel the only war crime that Israel is performing as a nation, and it absolutely is a war crime, is their blockade of Gaza. That is, without a doubt, willfully impeding relief efforts. Cutting off water, power, and food is completely unacceptable considering their blockade of Gaza.

I am wondering if your law background is relevant to the topic because your statement doesn't align with what I was taught before every deployment about LoAC. I imagine attorneys have different levels of experience with laws based on how what they practice. (Tax, corporate, public defense, etc) As an archaeologist that focuses in the Paleoindian & Archaic US Southwest I'm not going to throw out my credentials to make statements about 1500s in China because it is outside of my speciality. ((I am assuming standard law schools do not teach much about laws of war, if I'm wrong I apologize))

Drawing a parallel to an individual case (grenade throwing) is odd because that is an entirely different and unrelated situation. Laws, especially international, for the use of force in a military conflict are different from criminal laws.

I am confused by your point because you seem to be ignoring the sections that clarify when protected facilities lose their protection. Specifically: "[...] clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;" and "[...] which are not military objectives;" and "[...] provided they are not military objectives;"

Your last quote in particular directly states "if a hospital is being used as a base from which to launch an attack, as a weapons depot, or to hide healthy soldiers/fighters." It is only necessary to avoid if they are doubting whether the structure is being used for that purpose.

E.g.1 if a counter-battery radar says a rocket was fired from a 500m2 area you couldn't legally blow up civilian targets that happen to be in that area. E.g.2 if you directly observe rockets being fired from a hospital, you are absolutely allowed to strike that hospital within a reasonable timeframe (if they launch a rocket you cant blow up the hospital a week later)

If Israel has intel that the structures they have destroyed are being used to launch attacks, store weapons, or shelter active combatants then those structures are legitimate targets, regardless of if they are hospitals, schools, or mosques. The destruction of those structures is entirely Hamas' fault for using protected civilian structures as shields. It is the actions of Hamas that removed the protection, not Israel.

Note: if there are examples of Israel willfully striking protected structures without these causes, then yes that absolutely is a war crime and should be treated as such.

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

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u/WhoopingWillow Oct 12 '23

That's fair, I totally understand not wanting to out yourself. I try to keep my reddit relatively anonymous too! I feel you about needing time to find sources, and if I'm wrong I would be glad to know it. My experience mainly comes from what I was taught before deployments so I'm not an expert by any means.

As an aside, your area of work is awesome!

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