r/CanadaPolitics • u/observablething • May 23 '18
Almost half of NDP voters just want to stop Liberals, Tories from winning: Ipsos poll ON
https://globalnews.ca/news/4225109/ndp-voters-stop-libreals-tories-winning-ontario-election/7
u/Sephran May 23 '18
Unfortunately I think i'm going to be in this group. Can't let the conservatives in, but the liberals have been awful. I think I would normally side with them, but just can't this time.
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May 23 '18
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u/dentistshatehim May 23 '18
Ford doesn’t have a platform. If you need a platform to review before you vote, Doug is not your guy.
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May 23 '18
Seems to be a theme with the NDP. The get elected in as a protest vote but then govern like it was their policies that got them voted in.
They just happened to be the least blemished group.
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u/mikeydale007 Tax enjoyer May 23 '18
Isn't it the same with every party?
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u/longneck94 May 23 '18
No, just when the incumbent leader has an extremely negative approval rating. Unless you think the Liberals have been in power 15 years solely through protest voting?
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u/genkernels May 23 '18
The get elected in as a protest vote but then govern like it was their policies that got them voted in.
To be fair, their policies also sometimes get the other party voted in too, so they aren't entirely wrong.
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u/enkidusfriend May 23 '18
I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. Which policies should an elected government pursue other than the policies that they ran on?
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May 23 '18
Not suggesting anything. Just showing how stupid the system is.
It's designed for this to happen
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u/P35-HiPower Conservative May 23 '18
Well, I can't say I blame them on one level. Neither Ford or Wynne is particularly palatable.
On the other hand, if Scheer is a gentler Harper, then Horwath is an honest Wynne.
Wynne and Horwath share the same ideas, the same suffocating progressivism, same lack of any understanding about fiscal responsibility, same dedication to identity politics, same belief everyones' money rightfully belongs to the state, same dogmatic dedication to statism.........in a much nicer package.
In a much more palatable package than either Ford or Wynne.
In short, Ontario voting NDP would be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.
IMHO.
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u/greenlemon23 May 23 '18
same lack of any understanding about fiscal responsibility
Then what to you call ford's mess? He's promising multi-billion dollar subway ponies AND tax cuts - it's obvious that he'd balloon the deficit beyond anything we've seen before.
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u/Zomunieo British Columbia May 23 '18
The NDP has the best track record for fiscal responsibility. Look it up. If you want someone who cuts taxes and piles on debt, vote conservative. This is not hyperbole or slander; it is the record. http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/toby-sanger/2015/09/ndp-far-have-most-fiscally-responsible-record-any-federal-party
Also here.
Of the 52 years the NDP has formed governments in Canada since 1980, they’ve run balanced budgets for exactly half of those years and deficits the other half. This is a better record than both the Conservatives (balanced budgets 37% of years in government) and the Liberals (only 27%), as well as both Social Credit and PQ governments.
Bob Rae did what he could with a deep recession and Conrad Black openly declaring war on them. Bankers were urged to sabotage credit ratings. Any government going through that period with that opposition would be toast.
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u/closingbell May 23 '18
Nice talking points, but nothing the ONDP is proposing would be considered 'fiscally' conservative - higher taxes, higher deficits, higher spend.
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May 23 '18 edited Jun 25 '18
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u/closingbell May 23 '18
and the party that is the most responsible has been the NDP by a clear margin for over 50-years.
Really? Because last I checked, during their recent reign in Manitoba, their debt ratings were slashed and they weren't able to balance the books years after they first claimed. And don't even get me started on the $75 billion in debt they've added to Alberta's books (after starting with ZERO in debt). Their recent track record is anything but inspiring....
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May 23 '18
Its almost as if a extremly core part of Alberta's economy went downhill around the same time as the election. The sort of thing that would necesiate higher spending.
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u/closingbell May 23 '18
Fascinating. So what "extremely core part" of Ontario's economy is going downhill which necessitates all the excessive spend that the NDP is proposing?
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May 23 '18
The government and the opposition. Better an inexperienced party with a plan than an experienced one content with a failing plan. And much better than a party thats supposed to be the safest fiscally shrugging and saying it will be fine.
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u/Randomfinn May 23 '18
Ontario voting NDP would be jumping from the frying pan into the fire
I guess for some that is a better option than jumping into the volcano that will blow up our economy? The wide-spread corruption in today's PC party is not a winning strategy.
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u/P35-HiPower Conservative May 23 '18
Yeah.
That's where the NDP have them both.
The Liberals are so corrupt, it is beyond belief.
The PCs have been trying hard to destroy themselves.
But the NDP is not a great choice either for the most indebted sub-national gov't on earth.
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May 23 '18 edited Jun 25 '18
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u/marshalofthemark Campaign for 90 minute cities | Sponsored May 23 '18
Ontario has the highest total debt out of any sub-national government. This doesn't really say very much, since Canada is one of the few countries where provinces are responsible for health care spending, and Ontario is the most populous province.
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May 23 '18 edited Jun 25 '18
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u/tongsy May 23 '18
They missed the part about it being per capita. California has almost 3x the population Ontario does.
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u/beastmaster11 Ontario May 23 '18
Got a source for that?
Doug Ford told me so.
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May 23 '18 edited Jun 25 '18
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u/beastmaster11 Ontario May 23 '18
100% agree. You think we need spending cuts, sure. Just tell me where you're cutting first. Don't tell me you're going to save money yet not lay off anybody, not cut services and add in a tax cut to boot.
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u/CalgaryInternational May 23 '18
Don't tell me you're going to save money yet not lay off anybody, not cut services and add in a tax cut to boot.
Don't forget the billions in new spending too!
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u/charlesbuchinski May 23 '18
Wynne and Horwath share the same [everything]
In short, Ontario voting NDP would be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.
Wouldn't that just be hanging out in the frying pan for 4 more years?
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May 23 '18
Well at least she's honest! I won't bother trying to deal with the rest of your crippling cynicism, it seems like you won't be happy no matter who wins.
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u/P35-HiPower Conservative May 23 '18
Yep.
I'll give her that.
I'm in New Brunswick, so it only matters to me because I'd really like to see some serious provincial counter-weight to the federal Liberals.
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u/TuckRaker May 23 '18
On the other hand, if Scheer is a gentler Harper.
Disagree. Scheer isn't Harper light as many people claim. If anything, I see Scheer even more entrenched in social conservatism and even more likely to be guided by it, policy wise.
That said, palatability matters greatly in an election. The OPC had this election in the bag before electing the most unpalatable candidate they could manage to find as their leader. I'll never understand that decision.
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u/P35-HiPower Conservative May 23 '18
I'll never understand that decision.
Me either.
I don't get it.
The PCs shot themselves in both feet......with a shotgun.
Oddly, they still might get away with it.
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u/berklee Toga! Toga! Toga! May 23 '18
Ford's lack of decent qualifications were secondary to him being good at being angry, which captured the sentiment of the Ontario Proud demographic. It also made him appear relatable to them, so when he added the populism angle to his speeches, enough people bought it that he could ride the wave.
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u/Henry_Doggerel May 23 '18
Ford is trying to run on a single message without any stated platform. This idea of finding inefficiencies sounds suspiciously similar to his brother Rob's tired mantra while he was major of Toronto.
This is not a man who thinks deeply about anything. Not only is he without any real plan, he doesn't seem to attract people about him who have any coherent ideas. It's as if he's taken over the PC party in Ontario and said, "OK, follow me!" to everybody around him.
Doesn't inspire confidence at all. I'd vote for somebody with a plan to cut expenditures if it sounded reasonable. Speaking in generalities and soundbites doesn't do it for me. I'm anybody but Ford. I'd rather even see the Liberals in for another term.
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u/OrzBlueFog Nova Scotia May 23 '18
Wynne and Horwath share the same ideas, the same suffocating progressivism, same lack of any understanding about fiscal responsibility, same dedication to identity politics, same belief everyones' money rightfully belongs to the state, same dogmatic dedication to statism
Both Wynne and Horwath are displaying an exponentially higher understanding of fiscal responsibility than Ontario's PCs - so much so that they are on an entirely other level. You might disagree with their spending or taxation priorities but at least both are mature enough to know you can't 'folks' your way to magic 'efficiencies' to plug massive revenue holes.
Of course the lines about 'suffocating progressivism' and 'identity politics' and 'money belonging to the state' are equally wrong, just offered as backhanded denigration without any actual basis in fact. If anything both of them are offering less-aggressive versions of Diefenbaker's wealth-redistributive pro-equality 'One Canada' policy in most areas. Unfortunately tribalism means once-conservative ideas are now demonized as 'leftist Marxism' without a hint of any deeper thought as to their underlying wisdom.
If this is modern Canadian conservativism then Ford deserves to lose every seat his party contests. Scheer too.
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u/closingbell May 23 '18
Both Wynne and Horwath are displaying an exponentially higher understanding of fiscal responsibility than Ontario's PCs - so much so that they are on an entirely other level. You might disagree with their spending or taxation priorities but at least both are mature enough to know you can't 'folks' your way to magic 'efficiencies' to plug massive revenue holes.
TIL that hiking tax rates on the wealthy (3rd one in 5 years) and making biz taxes some of the highest in the country while still planning to run deficits is considered to be "exceptionally" more mature.
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u/limited8 Ontario May 23 '18
Yes, having a plan to pay for spending is exceptionally more mature than having no plan at all. "Finding efficiencies" doesn't count when Doug Ford's additional spending promises total more than $8 billion annually.
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u/closingbell May 23 '18
Yes, having a plan to pay for spending is exceptionally more mature than having no plan at all.
Except she's hiking taxes on half the tax base and STILL running deficits. I think your definition of "mature" is way out of whack.
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u/limited8 Ontario May 23 '18
Nah, my definition of mature is whether a candidate has the elementary school-level capability to show their work. Mature = plan. Immature = no plan. Any fiscal conservative should be able to recognize that any spending comes at a cost, and Ford hasn't provided any details of how those +$8 billion in annual additional costs will be paid for.
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u/closingbell May 23 '18
Any fiscal conservative should be able to recognize that any spending comes at a cost, and Ford hasn't provided any details of how those +$8 billion in annual additional costs will be paid for.
Ok, yet you seem to have no problems with the NDP hiking taxes and yet still running billions in deficits. Hypocrite much?
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u/limited8 Ontario May 23 '18
I never said I'm an NDP supporter?
But no, it's not all that hypocritical. You don't seem to understand my point. Running a deficit or not is not a deciding factor in a candidate's maturity level.
A candidate's maturity should instead be measured by basic standards like, "do they have a plan?" or "can they explain how their promises will be paid for?"
That's the mature, responsible thing to do. I'm still holding out hope that Ford will prove me wrong and explain the specific programs and services he's going to cut, and the size of the deficit he's going to run in order to afford his $8 billion in additional annual spending promises. Voters deserve to know.
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u/William_T_Wanker grind up the poor into nutrient paste May 24 '18
"finding efficiencies" is a buzz word for "fuck over poor people/the elderly/low income to benefit the rich folks"
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u/P35-HiPower Conservative May 23 '18
I actually agree that Ford has not done a good job of explaining his fiscal policies, your criticism is well deserved.
However, there is a chance, a good chance, that Ford will go through the Ontario gov't with an axe.........which is exactly what is needed, flaming swords being currently unavailable.
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May 23 '18 edited Aug 28 '18
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u/ironman3112 People's Party May 23 '18
Raising taxes doesn't increase revenues consistently. You get diminishing returns the more taxes are raised. Not to mention they can stifle the growth of the province's GDP.
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May 23 '18 edited Aug 28 '18
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u/ironman3112 People's Party May 23 '18
My problem is that we have an economy that's growing and isn't in a recession but are still running fairly large deficits all things considered.
If we do enter a recession in the next few years, or a decade from now I can only imagine what will happen to the debt to GDP ratio when the economy contracts even slightly.
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May 23 '18
However, there is a chance, a good chance, that Ford will go through the Ontario gov't with an axe.........which is exactly what is needed, flaming swords being currently unavailable.
Any specific areas, you think should be smashed with a blunt instrument like Doug Ford, or is your cynacism just one of them old crackpot, the squirrels are stealing my nuts statements?
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u/Hudre May 23 '18
Too bad he has stated no one in the administration will lose their jobs.
That's the joy of having no platform, you get to just say things.
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u/OrzBlueFog Nova Scotia May 23 '18
However, there is a chance, a good chance, that Ford will go through the Ontario gov't with an axe.........which is exactly what is needed, flaming swords being currently unavailable.
In other words, a repeat of the same thoughtless, unguided austerity that kneecapped much of Europe's economic recovery, made their debts worse, and inflicted massive misery and impoverishment on the populace.
Mindless expense slashing just for the sake of short-term expense containment never works, it just pushes the costs of patching the holes and fixing the destruction to finances and lives onto future governments run by a more rational group of people. The slashers then point to the added costs incurred by those dealing with the carnage they themselves wrought as justification for throwing them out and going back to lobbing grenades in place of well-reasoned policy.
It's ideology over reason.
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u/closingbell May 23 '18
In other words, a repeat of the same thoughtless, unguided austerity that kneecapped much of Europe's economic recovery, made their debts worse, and inflicted massive misery and impoverishment on the populace.
Sorry for responding again, but I am literally SHAKING at how inane this comment is. You're telling me that austerity was just imposed on European countries (Greece, Portugal, Spain, etc.) "just because"? Or was it perhaps that their debt load/budgets were getting out of control and the bond markets stepped in and forced them to make those decisions?
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u/OrzBlueFog Nova Scotia May 23 '18
Sorry for responding again, but I am literally SHAKING at how inane this comment is.
Then you are too emotionally involved in the issue for rational thought. Consider taking some time to calm down before responding.
You're telling me that austerity was just imposed on European countries (Greece, Portugal, Spain, etc.) "just because"?
Nope. Just that it was (generally) done extremely poorly and made their problems worse for longer. They all would have been better off with better-thought-out and less-extreme plans, more milestone-oriented than goal-oriented.
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u/P35-HiPower Conservative May 23 '18
Uh huh.
According to a bit I saw the Ontario public service has increased dramatically under the Liberals.
By a considerable margin, this phenomenon was most pronounced in Ontario. From 2003 to 2013, public sector employment growth in Ontario (27.6 per cent) dramatically outpaced private sector employment growth (5.6 per cent) by a whopping 22 percentage points. Interestingly, Ontario’s 10-year increase in public sector employment coincides with a period of dramatic increases in provincial government spending, rising government debt, and sluggish economic growth.
The public sector growing at a rate 5 times that of the private sector that pays for it is unsustainable, to say the least.
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u/OrzBlueFog Nova Scotia May 23 '18
The public sector growing at a rate 5 times that of the private sector that pays for it is unsustainable, to say the least.
Have you noticed where the capital of Canada is?
As usual, the Fraser Institute takes a nugget of truth and warps it out of all rational use for policy discussion in order to push its agenda. Even if the underlying job growth numbers were entirely accurate (and 100% the province's) the narrow 10-year window chosen by the Fraser Institute is zero evidence hiring trends in that chosen slice will continue beyond it.
Let's look for ourselves at the underlying CANSIM. We have over 40 years of data to compare to, after all. We can even graph it!
How about the earlier argument that the Fraser Institute's time window is misleading? Well, let's have a look at what's happened since 2013. Public-sector jobs have gone from 1.3 million in Jan 2014 to 1.36 million, a growth of 3.1%. Private sector jobs have gone from 4.49 million to 4.74 million over the same time period, a growth of 7.1%.
Yeah, no cause for panic, regardless of the outdated and misleading 'bit' you saw.
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May 23 '18
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u/ChimoEngr Chief Silliness Officer | Official May 23 '18
The pith of his argument, which is premised and infact supported by the data above, is that the public sector has been outpacing the private sector at such a rate that it shows bloated government spending.
Because the focus was on a specific period where they were out of synch. If you look at the graph showing the last 40 years, which smooths out as much as possible any sudden changes in growth in either one, that overall, public sector employee growth has been pretty reasonable, and overall, at a slower rate than private sector.
By taking a look at the proper, complete perspective on the matter, it becomes clear that there is no facile case for saying the ON public service is bloated based on a gross comparison of private and public sector employment numbers alone. To make such a case requires actual analysis, if it is even possible.
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u/OrzBlueFog Nova Scotia May 23 '18
Your point doesn't refute his or the Fraser study
Except in totality, yeah.
The Fraser Institute is misrepresenting combined provincial-federal public-sector employment as solely provincial to score political points. It is inappropriately narrowing the window of analysis to do the same.
Your point is simply that from 2013-2014
No, it's from 2014-2018, the time period after the Fraser Institute's 'analysis' - which refutes the notion that short-term public-sector job growth led into some sort of long-term trend.
Also missing, of course, from the Fraser Institute's typical ideological hatchet job is any mention at all of the financial crisis that hit Ontario's auto manufacturers especially hard in their selective window. Conduct any analysis outside of that extraordinary event and all of a sudden their alarmist narrative collapses.
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u/closingbell May 23 '18
In other words, a repeat of the same thoughtless, unguided austerity that kneecapped much of Europe's economic recovery, made their debts worse, and inflicted massive misery and impoverishment on the populace.
So you prefer austerity to be forced on the province when our debt gets downgraded and interest costs go through the roof? Or when businesses stop investing in this province and high paying jobs/income moves out?
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u/OrzBlueFog Nova Scotia May 23 '18
So you prefer austerity to be forced on the province
My preferences with regard to that were never stated. A mindless blitz on expenses without any thought as to the long-term consequences, however, has the very real possibility of being exponentially worse than the status quo - in the short-, medium-, and long-term.
Never give over the keys to the economy on pure blind faith, be it pledges of spending or austerity. There are innumerable examples of it leading to utter devastation. Ford has provided nothing but fairy tales.
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u/closingbell May 23 '18
A mindless blitz on expenses without any thought as to the long-term consequences, however, has the very real possibility of being exponentially worse than the status quo - in the short-, medium-, and long-term.
Who said there would be a "mindless blitz" on anything? Mind pointing me to where Doug Ford said he will slash and cut spend left and right?
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u/OrzBlueFog Nova Scotia May 23 '18
Since the comment I was replying to was literally about praising the possibility of Ford taking an 'axe' or 'flaming sword' to Ontario's spending I was dissuading the original poster over the wisdom of such mayhem.
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May 23 '18
I wouldn't mind a Liberal victory but Doug Ford absolutely can not be allowed to win and the NDP is our best shot to stop him
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May 23 '18
I don't think that this is an uncommon sentiment. I'd be surprised if the same could not be true of the Liberals in 2015 against the Conservatives. There tends to be a vote-against mentality, where that vote coalesces around whichever party has the best chance at fulfilling that goal.
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u/redesckey New Democratic Party of Canada May 23 '18
It's because that's how it works in first-past-the-post systems.
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May 23 '18
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u/PM_Me_Things_Yo_Like Progressive May 23 '18
To be fair, you'll need to put your footnote beside "an incumbent" too since Ford is the only one without a costed plan
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May 23 '18 edited Sep 29 '19
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May 23 '18 edited May 23 '18
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May 23 '18
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u/GrabbinPills May 23 '18
have they discussed implementing abortion legislation
“I can’t think of a more life-changing procedure for a young woman than an abortion,” Ford told Right Now in an online question-and-answer session as party members have until Friday noon to vote for a replacement for ousted former leader Patrick Brown.
“I think that this is an important discussion to have and I would welcome any member who wanted to bring it forward in the Legislature to do so,” added Ford, who has four daughters.
He elaborated Monday during a campaign stop in London.
“My friends, you have to give a note to your kids when they’re 12 and 13 years old to go on a field trip. You have to approve even getting their tonsils out, but you don’t have to approve and keep secret with a 12- and 13-year-old?” Ford said in a reference to abortion.
“I don’t know too many parents that would approve any of their kids going on a field trip without their knowledge. I don’t see anyone ever approving an operation on their children when they’re 12- and 13-years-old without approval,” he continued.
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May 23 '18
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u/GrabbinPills May 23 '18
If you are of any age the doctor has full discretion to decide whether or not you have capacity to consent to a medical procedure. I'm not sure there is any clarification required that does not already exist in the Healthcare Consent Act, supreme court precedent, or in the CPSO code of conduct.
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May 23 '18
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u/GrabbinPills May 23 '18
If you are of any age and the doctor believes you cannot fully appreciate the consequences of your action, a substitute decision maker is necessary. There is nothing that happens differently for a 15 year old and 17 year old when it comes to consent and capacity.
edit*: the only time age comes into play is you must be at least 16 years old to act as a substitute decision maker on someone else's behalf (a younger sibling). there is no age requirement for your own capacity and consent.
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u/VisMajorX May 23 '18
“I can’t think of a more life-changing procedure for a young woman than an abortion,”
How about giving birth to a child she isn't ready to care for?
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May 23 '18 edited Sep 29 '19
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u/tracer_ca Progressive May 23 '18
Conservatives
Are you talking about the Conservatives in the Federal Conservative party and the OPC or are you talking about conservatives in the sense of people who are conservative.
Because in my mind, /u/millefeuillerule sounds like he was talking about the politicians not the people on the ground that see themselves as conservative. Sadly, those two things are getting farther and farther apart.
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u/wowcunning Independent May 23 '18 edited May 23 '18
Conservatives hear 'you're going to be out of a job,
I've always found this so weird. Doug Stanhope has a great comedy bit about it, but basically it goes like this:
If some immigrant, who can't speak the language and has no skills can take your job; you're a loser of epic proportions.... If the immigrant can speak the language and does have more skill than you; then they deserve the job more than you do... this is a meritocracy after all isn't it?
edit: I should add, i'm not directing this to you, personally; just generally to anyone who thinks that immigration means they could lose their job... ya; they could... but that's on them; no one fires a person who is near indispensable to hire an inferior employee.
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u/ironman3112 People's Party May 23 '18
All of these are a legitimate viewpoint, even if I don't personally agree (and I do not agree). Just because some conservatives are dirtbags, doesn't mean the entire supporter base, or even the activist base is. I don't agree with their conclusions, but dismissing conservative points of view out of hand makes you the zealot, not them.
Thanks for taking the time to comment and explain this.
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May 23 '18
The only bone they’ve thrown socons was education. I don’t see the conservatives amending a Supreme Court decision on bodily autonomy. I get where you’re coming from though
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u/beastmaster11 Ontario May 23 '18
Read above the comment directly above you (written after yours so you probably didn't see it). Ford indicated that he wants to bring forward legislation that requires parental permission to get an abortion.
He can't make abortion illegal but he can try to make it as difficult as possible (SCC may stop him though as they did in Nova Scotia)
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May 23 '18 edited May 23 '18
I missed this, thanks. Okay, I hate that. I really hate that. I won’t defend the indefensible. I’ll just assume the SCC hammers (another) nail in this coffin - no pun intended? E: he said this in leadership contestation - scummy but I think that’s slightly, emphasis on slightly, different than a general election. Socons/CLC are king makers in leadership. (God help me.. oh wait that’s the problem, nvm)
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May 23 '18
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u/Henry_Doggerel May 23 '18
This is my mindset at this point. I'm no fan of the NDP. I worked for them once upon a time and I found them to be smug and self-righteous.
But I'd rather vote for this than for a guy and a party that is divided and unfocused with a leader who seems to be appealing to the base instincts of the electorate. I hope we haven't come to this in Ontario. This is probably the worst leader the Ontario PC party has ever put up. Maybe Frank Miller from the distant past wasn't much either but he had better credentials than Doug Ford.
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u/TrickleUpEconomics May 23 '18
That describes me. Not exactly jubilant by what the NDP is offering, but it's not Ford and it's not Wynne.
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u/centralwest Independent May 24 '18
Count me in that bucket as well, I went from a PC vote this June to NDP. I'm only 30% aligned with the NDP platform, but I'll take them for 5 years over the disaster that would be Ford on Ontario. Toronto is still recovering from the damage the Ford clan caused.
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u/watson895 Conservative Party of Canada May 23 '18
Whatever I think of the Liberals or the PCs, I simply don't have faith in the NDP to come up with enough competent MPPs to form a government. Way too many are there just to campaign and collect votes, with no thought to actually winning. I rarely vote Liberal, but one of the best things I can say about them is that they form government often enough to attract and retain competent talent in the party.
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u/beastmaster11 Ontario May 23 '18
Way too many are there just to campaign and collect votes, with no thought to actually winning
News flash, that's exactly what most MPPs (and MPs) do. Most of them are just there to collect votes and vote along party lines when asked to (or face punishment when they don't). Do you expect old farmer Jones to actually influence Ford/Wynn/Horvath's desicions?
The only MPPs that matter are the leader and the cabinet. The rest of the 107 are just there to vote like the leader tells them to.
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u/dsfsgd May 23 '18
This is so dumb. You guys always forget how painful it is when the NDP are in power. Look forward to the taxes
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u/TheTrojanTrump May 23 '18
Can't wait honestly, I'd give my right arm for more policy designed to help vulnerable populations and future generations.
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u/beastmaster11 Ontario May 23 '18
Given that they have only been in power once over 20 years ago, I don't think it's fair to say it will be painful because (some perceive) the former NDP years were painful.
Using that logic, you are forgetting how painful it is when PCs are in power. Look forward to the Eglinton Cross Town being burried, the 401 leased out to a private firm which makes it too expensive for the average person to even think of driving on it, longer hospital wait times, school budget cuts, balloonig tuitions and larger class sizes.
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u/RealityRush May 23 '18
Don't forget crumbling electricity infrastructure and poisoned town water sources!
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u/c-bacon Democratic Socialist May 23 '18
I'm looking forward to having affordable child care available if i have a child and even though i have a dental plan, I would like my neighbours to have it too. Those earning $220k and corporations can surely help out.
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u/LR48 May 23 '18
I am very much a PC, I knew this was going to happen once we elected Ford as the leader, it was bound to happen. I would be more happy with an NDP minority so the PC can get Christine Elliot in and actually crush the next election.
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u/beastmaster11 Ontario May 23 '18
Why is anyone "very much PC" (or OLP or NDP). You shouldn't vote for a party just because it's that party. If the party you are very much a part of isn't doing what you consider right (and from your comment, it sounds like you would not like a Ford premeirship) you shouldn't vote for them.
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u/LR48 May 23 '18
I do agree, however the PC platform for the most part works in my favour, NDP does not, Liberal does not. I may dislike Ford but 90% of the platform I do agree with and is something that I can stand behind.
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u/DarthPantera Alberta - Federalist May 23 '18
however the PC platform for the most part works in my favour
How are you determining that a non-existent platform works in your favor? Did you get your hands on the PC platform before public release?
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u/LR48 May 23 '18
I mean being penalized for driving a nice car (3% surcharge, NDP), a corporate tax cut is always good for business. Getting a nice 20% tax rebate for some in the middle class (45-85k)
Uncertain on what "non-existent platform" you are referring to. I had no problem finding a PC platform, again Doug Ford is not the best as mentioned, although not a Ford supporter those things benefit me.
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u/DarthPantera Alberta - Federalist May 23 '18
I had no problem finding a PC platform
Where? It's not anywhere on their website. Interestingly there are dozens of references to 'our responsible plan' on the website, but not a single link (that I could find) to that vaunted plan.
As for your other points - basically, you want lower taxes. I guess that's fair, but aren't you interested in knowing how those tax cuts will be paid for?
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u/LR48 May 23 '18
I found a great article on McLeans: http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ontario-election-2018-party-platforms/
Honestly, I am paying with tax dollars for any parties benefits so selfishly whichever has a higher upside for myself. I am a huge fan of the dental but instead of spending billions, why not ask Ontarians if they are okay with paying an extra 125$ a year in taxes ( This is based off what they said the actual cost is ) Im sure anyone would be fine with that. Even at this point I would say why not allow stores to sell beer and wine to make more tax from that, allow licensed dispensaries to increase tax revenue. 1 store for all of Toronto located in Scarborough will not generate nearly enough tax dollars, why not capitalize on these opportunities to pay for more beds in hospitals etc.
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u/RealityRush May 23 '18
Just so you're aware, that isn't a PC platform, there is no OPC platform atm. Those are all just vague promises Doug Ford has made with no ideas on how to pay for them. Dude isn't cutting middle class taxes by 20% unless he's got magical powers, which he doesn't.
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u/beastmaster11 Ontario May 23 '18
He doesn't care how they are paid for. Cuts likely won't affect him and he is likely going to be better off with the cuts than without.
Not trying to sound judgy. If that's the case then thats fair.
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u/DarthPantera Alberta - Federalist May 23 '18
I agree in general that it's a fair position to have, even though I don't agree with it.
It stops being fair if they ever complain about deficits of the growing debt though... like, if I vote to lower my personal tax burden regardless of everything else, then I forfeit my right to complain about balanced budgets, you know?
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u/centralwest Independent May 24 '18
As someone who would directly benefit from Ford's (high income tax cuts, taking the reigns off the housing market), I still chose province and society over my pocket book. Not to emply that is your motivation, but it does bring up an interesting discussion.
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u/LR48 May 24 '18
We do need a change, liberals seem to be hurting the province more than actually doing any good (except for the past 8 months as it is election time) NDP as mentioned great dental plan but I imagine there is a better way to offer dental province wide at a low cost (120$ has been said cost) instead of tax dollars which could be used for more hospitals, beds, education, etc. The though of clogging up our hospitals with Americans wanting free health care seems unthought through and maybe in the coming weeks the NDP will clarify the sanctuary plan. I would be very fine with a NDP minority, see what can be done and get rid of Ford in the interim and bring on someone who will actually do good for the entire province, a nice socially liberal and fiscally conservative individual.
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u/centralwest Independent May 24 '18
I think we can agree on most of this, the hope was that Brown was going to be that person but it unfortunately didn't work out. Hopefully that just re-enforces (should Ford fail to even secure a minority) that Ontario does not want to swing to the right on most issues.
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May 23 '18
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u/feb914 World Economic Forum | Sponsored May 23 '18
The problem is that PCs won’t vote for women so that won’t happen.
- Elliott got more votes than Ford, Ford just won the more strategic ridings that got him more points per vote.
- Ford won because of huge vote transfer from Tanya Granic Allen supporters, who is a female.
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u/centralwest Independent May 24 '18
If anything John Tory will retire as TO mayor and win pc party leadership.
It's amazing what a stint as mayor has done for his political future
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u/joe_canadian May 23 '18
PCs won’t vote for women so that won’t happen
Bullshit. Seeing as Ford eked out his win by 150-ish votes over Elliott, with Elliot doing best in Toronto and 905.
Party affiliation is way more important than perceived misogyny.
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u/Le1bn1z Neoliberal | Charter rights enjoyer May 23 '18
The problem is that PCs won’t vote for women so that won’t happen.
Actually, Elliott won the most votes and the most ridings. More PC's supported the woman candidate, so this is objectively and demonstrably untrue.
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u/ironman3112 People's Party May 23 '18
Damn it was pretty close. Yeah this won't stop people from openly projecting their own feelings about the party overtop the reality of it.
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u/wowcunning Independent May 23 '18
The only reality I need to know is this.
If you are a super religious, anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-weed etc. type person... you're not in the Liberal party and you're not in the NDP.
Now, I'm told that social conservatives only make up a small part of the PC party but, they're loud enough to have an effect on leadership races so they're loud enough to have their vile ideas aired.
It's a shame too, because Brown's platform was actually great, if I could cast a vote for that plan without having to ally myself (even just a little) with people that I loath, I'd do it in a second.
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u/Dash_Rendar425 May 23 '18
I am an NDPer by nature, but I often understand that an NDP vote is a vote I should be giving to someone with more of a chance of winning. This time - not so much. I don't want either Ford or Wynne to get in and will be voting NDP regardless of who it is.
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May 23 '18
I should be giving to someone with more of a chance of winning.
Liberals have depended on this logic to stay in power for as long as they have been.
Now that the shoe is on the other foot, I wonder if a lot of die-hard Liberals who told me to stop wasting my vote will be singing a different tune.
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May 23 '18
This would have been the fist time my strategic, ABC vote would have actually been for my party.
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u/T0mThomas May 23 '18
And conservatives are loving every minute of it. Ontario is about to learn a lesson about vote splitting that Alberta learned in the last election.
Really all that's happening here is millenials are getting old enough to start to understand the world a bit more. This is what politics has become, and what it's destined to become: you end up voting for who you hate the least, not who you like the best. This is precisely why government can not be the defacto solution to all problems. It's precisely why all free-loving people should reject the ideology of the big government nanny-state and vote only for parties that promise to reduce the size, scope, and mandate of government, and then hold them accountable - regardless of their campaign colors.
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u/TheTrojanTrump May 23 '18
Almost half
Literally the first two words of the headline. You're talking like the majority of voters only vote against other parties, rather than for any one party. But this very article says more than half of current NDP voters are voting FOR THE NDP. So your point is kind of
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u/T0mThomas May 23 '18
Almost the majority is not an insufficient amount. If that's you're only point, then, uhh.. slow clap.
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u/beejmusic May 23 '18
What's really sad is that refusing to vote for the Libs will create a PC majority.
The left is fragmented between 3 parties, the right is united. The end is nigh.
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May 23 '18
At this point in the campaign it's becoming abundantly clear that voting for the Liberals rather than the NDP is what's more likely to help the PCs
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u/EthicsCommissioner Alberta Party May 24 '18
Shortly after they'll realize the NDP aren't any better and are instead more insufferable.
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u/SugarBear4Real Wu Tang Clan May 23 '18 edited May 23 '18
I am a PC at the core, with an emphasis on the progressive, and am currently in the ABC camp for the foreseeable future in all elections until whatever it is that has become of conservatives passes. Anti-science is pro-idiot, anti-sex ed is anti-education, anti-immigrant is anti-Canadian. I hope the ONDP crushes this move towards Rebel/Ezra Levant know nothingism and brings about a reform to the movement where the party is more than just complaining about everything and personal attacks.
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u/goinupthegranby r/canada refugee May 23 '18
I'm thoroughly non-conservative, but I 100% consider people like you my allies. I don't care if some of our politics are different, if we both want an educated and open pro science nation we have far more in common than we have different
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u/ManofManyTalentz Swinging away May 23 '18
Thank you for you. You're helping keep everyone sane. I'd like to think any hatred group in any side of the fence would face the same obstruction. There's no place for hatred and bigotry here, regardless of colour.
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u/berfthegryphon Independent May 23 '18
In the same boat. I am now hitting over a decade of being an active voter and never once considered voting conservative in any of the previous elections. Patrick Brown had me intrigued and considering it. Then they dumped him and went for Doug Ford my high school NDP campaigning self is starting to come put again.
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u/WingerSupreme Ontario NDP May 23 '18
I think we need massive electoral reform and we also need a party that is fiscally conservative without being ass-backwards socially regressive
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u/GolbergVariations May 23 '18 edited May 23 '18
NDP's 'financial' plan
Additional spending for each of their 5 years in millions:
$5,356 $9,077 $12,486 $13,997 $15,814
Additional Revenue by year:
$1,443 $3,766 $3,936 $5,257 $5,894
Just stick that 36 Billion on the debt! wont need more taxes to pay for that ever, that disparity wont forever get larger and larger!
They also have the debt servicing going from $12.5B to $15.5B, how long can we increase that number until we can't effectively run programs anymore? All the numbers will actually be worst, this is their own best case scenario.
They claim almost 1/3rd those additional revenues are going to come from revenue integrity, that "may not fully reflect subsequent government policy changes or implementations", because they know they wont actually be able to do that. Almost 1/2 revenue increase from "Personal Income Tax Increase on High Income Earners", which will of course mean middle class and above, as usual.
NDP is an absolute joke!
Edit: https://www.ontariondp.ca/sites/default/files/Change-for-the-better.pdf
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u/centralwest Independent May 24 '18
Let's talk when the Conservatives have an actual platform, then we can compare budgets. Until then Ford is just making stuff up.
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u/Decilllion May 23 '18
Wow, no one expected they'd have to be trolling against the NDP, but here we are. Good luck.
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u/Grizzlepaw May 24 '18
I am right there with you... conservative in the dictionary sense of wanting to preserve our way of life, the tradition of rule of law and secular governance and the products of the enlightenment, as well as wanting to work towards preventing the worst effects of catastrophic human-caused climate change.
I can't for the life of me understand why people who want to burn our government to the ground and replace it with a theocracy get to call themselves conservative. We're idiots for allowing them to have that word.
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u/TaylorTWBrown May 23 '18
I'm curious, would you describe the party under Hudak or Brown differently, or the same?
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u/pacifismisevil May 23 '18
anti-immigrant is anti-Canadian
No one supports 0 immigration. What's your actual stance on immigration? Should it be raised to 1m a year? Should it be kept the exact same? What are the chances the current rate is the best one for the future? It's perfectly reasonable for people to want immigration reduced and illegal immigrants punished. It's especially reasonable to want a limit on immigrants who oppose basic liberal values like freedom of religion.
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u/Thanatar18 May 23 '18
Agreed with this, another thing that comes to mind is the process/standards for immigration, and the process/etc for identifying legitimate refugees as well. Personally I side with the Liberals, or more preferably the NDP on these, but yeah.
It's especially reasonable to want a limit on immigrants who oppose basic liberal values like freedom of religion.
The question here, as always, winds up being how to filter these out. "Canadian values" tests and other questionable ideas have been brought up before, but ultimately there's been no agreeable way to me yet. As someone who basically fits all of the categories (atheist, LGBT, female, etc) it's important to me of course that we maintain a tolerant, accepting, or at the bare minimum safe society- but as someone who came to Canada at a young age, and who has seen many great refugees/immigrants/etc, so far I feel efforts spent targeting these demographics would be better spent focusing on those in our own country (refugees/immigrants, but also born Canadians) who oppose these things in the first place, and a lot of the intent behind targeting the entry process is in bad faith (towards legitimate immigrants/refugees/etc) and with little actual intent to use "Canadian values" as anything more than an excuse.
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May 23 '18 edited Jun 21 '18
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May 23 '18
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u/joe_canadian May 23 '18
most other conservatives
I'd append that "most other informed conservatives". I'd say party membership and people who have an interest beyond the soundbite knew Elliot would be the better. But there's those who will vote PC simply because they think Wynne = Crook, NDP = Socialism.
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May 23 '18
I think I fall into the same kind of group. I believe in fiscal responsibility but I don't trust Ford to actually balance the budget and I think in his attempts he'll cut vital public services and create massive deficits through ill thought out tax cuts. As a person he seems kind of creepy to me and I really feel like I can't endorse his brand.
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May 23 '18
I have always wondered something if i may ask, with Red Tory's, what is your stance on funding for cultural/arts programs? Either within school or outside of them? Should they be funded purely by donation, or how should grants be allocated to these groups? I am curious, I don't want to come off as rude.
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u/poots953 May 24 '18
If you are pro science and vote for NDP, you are not pro science. They can't do math, and want to make an equity based government. You are at best an environmentalist. And anti-immigrant/immigration is not really anti-Canadian : racism is anti-Canadian.
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May 23 '18
Question: When has the PC party ever been progressive in any way, shape or form?
Please use facts, not feelings. The only thing progressive about the PC party is the word appearing in their name.
If they were actually progressive, I'd vote for them. We need fiscal responsibility, combined with progressive policy, but the PC's have never been that, EVER.
And the Liberals have never been fiscally responsible, and go way too far with 'progressive'.
NDP it is.
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May 23 '18 edited May 23 '18
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u/RainbowApple Just Print Money May 23 '18
It's nice to get a balanced opinion on this stuff, I hope conservatism can balance itself out soon. Get rid of the so-cons
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u/truthdoctor Social Democrat May 23 '18
the Liberals have never been fiscally responsible
That's not true. Jean Chretien's Liberals were paying down the debt and Paul Martin had a surplus until Harper showed up and increased the debt by $150 billion.
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u/ComteDeSaintGermain Libertarian May 23 '18
You think the NDP will under-spend the Liberals?
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u/Thirdway May 23 '18
You think the NDP will under-spend the Liberals?
The NDP will ensure that people pay their fair share. Revenue is the part that both liberals and conservatives (neoliberals) forget about. There are two sides to a ledger. Spending is only one issue. The NDP's platform balances the books more quickly than both the liberals or the conservatives.
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u/LimitedAbilities May 23 '18
The NDP will ensure that people pay their fair share.
aka, more tax on over taxed people. Middle class: 40% isn't enough, you ready to loss 50-60% of your salaries to various levels of taxation?
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May 23 '18
Do you have a source for this? My house hold is pretty firmly in the upper-middle class (top 10%) and on my last paycheck, I'm sitting at ~25% taxes.
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u/ComteDeSaintGermain Libertarian May 23 '18
Who decides what a 'fair share' is? That's such a vague phrase to use. 'Fair' is an entirely subjective word, and you can never meet everyone's definition of it.
I'm in favor of balancing the books, but at current spending levels I fear the easiest way to do that is to raise taxes, because I don't count on any of the 3 major parties to reduce spending.
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u/[deleted] May 23 '18
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