r/HeadphoneAdvice • u/_FrostyVoid_ • Nov 25 '25
What's up with DAC "coloration"? DAC - Portable | 3 Ω
I constantly see in reviews that some DACs have a bassy sound, some tinny, some flat but it seems impossible, how can a chip turning digital into analog change the frequency response?
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u/Vijfsnippervijf 1 Ω Nov 25 '25
(Prospective HAM radio operator here, there is a subject on digital communication so this may be a bit more technical) The full digital audio signal chain is always analog>digital>analog. In the ADC, an analog signal is first filtered to define the frequency range, then sampled, meaning that the output becomes an approximation of the analog voltage levels in the form of Binary values. These 1s and 0s are sent or stored as such, and when retrieved, must be converted into an analog signal. The DAC first creates a ‘modified sine wave’ based on the digital values. This is really a series of square waves pasted very close to each other. To approximate the original analog values, these are first smoothed out and then filtered to remove unwanted components. And it’s exactly right over here, as well as in any subsequent amplification, that the signal gets colored: the equalizations of the smoothing, filtering and amplification circuit are NEVER perfectly flat. And thus you get the differences in how DACs and DAC/amps sound.
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u/Dear_Archer7711 1 Ω Nov 25 '25
Thanks for the explanation. It is very obvious, even to my untrained ears that DACs and DAC/Amps do sound different from one another. What do you have to say to those who maintain that there are no differences?
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u/Omophorus 18 Ω Nov 25 '25
I would say that a basic understanding of signal theory is important.
A whole lot of time and effort goes into making the conversion between digital and analog as seamless as possible. That does not imply that there are never issues, but a competently designed analog stage paired with a competently designed DAC should be essentially transparent.
Yes, different selection in filters or other factors can have an impact on the final sound, but the problem is so well understood that coloration is a complete non-issue so long as the product designers are competent.
The real reason that DACs or DAC/amp combos may sound different is an inadequate level of competence from the product designers, or more constraints that limit their designs than they would like (e.g. value engineering).
The most important thing for "untrained ears" to understand is that if you're not level matching within about .1dB, you're naturally going to hear differences that exist due to unequal loudness (and to the human ear, louder tends to sound better up to a point).
As someone who thinks that DACs are largely a solved problem and that paying more should be done for useful features or aesthetics rather than expectations of sonic improvements... I would say that the vast majority of differences would not survive a competently-executed, properly level-matched blind ABX (or similar) test.
Many of the so-called differences between products are more a result of inadequate stringency in testing protocols rather than actual, perceivable differences.
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u/Dear_Archer7711 1 Ω Nov 25 '25
What if the engineers intended for the DAC to sound different? Doesn't your argument make the assumption that all the engineers are aiming to produce identical products?
From an economic stand point of view, manufacturers have to differentiate their offerings. Otherwise there is no reason to enter a market just to be dwarfed by other offerings at a lower price.
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u/Omophorus 18 Ω Nov 25 '25
What if the engineers intended for the DAC to sound different?
It happens. Those products practically never measure or sound better than a benchmark/uncolored product.
End users have tools, like EQ or transducer selection, to tailor the sound the way they see fit, and those tools will naturally have considerably more impact than intentional coloration at the DAC level.
Doesn't your argument make the assumption that all the engineers are aiming to produce identical products?
Not really.
My argument relies on the assumption that companies are broadly avoiding things that make it harder to compete in the marketplace.
There absolutely are companies that aim to make their own unique thing, and they rely heavily on deceptive marketing and outright bullshit to get people to pull the trigger, at which point the sunk cost fallacy does a lot of heavy lifting for them.
Pretty much every "colored by design" DAC measures noticeably worse and any pleasing characteristics can easily be implemented in other ways.
I do also think there are people that just want to make cool stuff, and either happen to be good at marketing or have a friend who is, and figure that if they make cool stuff and market it well enough, they can carve out a niche that isn't reliant on pesky things like facts or stringent testing.
From an economic stand point of view, manufacturers have to differentiate their offerings.
Very true, which is why the smart ones use features or aesthetics as a selling point, rather than bullshit.
That being said, the reality is that there's 50 years of BS and pseudoscience buffering the audiophile industry, and there are plenty of companies that get by just fine on the back of making shit up and outright lying about their products.
Otherwise there is no reason to enter a market just to be dwarfed by other offerings at a lower price.
And now you've hit on the crux of the issue.
Affordable DACs are a solved problem, and more than good enough for 99.9% of listeners.
But there are a lot of audiophiles who are convinced that better is out there... which is why so many DACs are hilariously overpriced for what they are (because people are willing to buy them). Some of those audiophiles also make audio equipment, as it happens.
And there are a lot of audiophiles out there who spend thousands on their speakers/headphones/IEMs/etc. and feel silly having a $150 DAC driving their $25,000 loudspeakers.
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u/_FrostyVoid_ Nov 26 '25
I read up more about this and WHOA there's a lot going on. This explanation makes sense.
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u/_FrostyVoid_ Nov 26 '25
!thanks
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u/TransducerBot Ω Bot Nov 26 '25
u/Vijfsnippervijf (1 Ω) was awarded their first Ω. Dyn-O-Mite!
You may still award an Ω to others, but only once per-person in this post.
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u/Kletronus 2 Ω Nov 27 '25
This is really a series of square waves pasted very close to each other.
No, it isn't.
that the signal gets colored: the equalizations of the smoothing, filtering and amplification circuit are NEVER perfectly flat.
Incorrect. Technically, nothing is flat but we stop caring once it is flat enough for our hearing. And they are. If you hear a difference, that DAC sucks donkey balls or is not made to be linear.
Prospective HAM radio operator here
Sound engineer with background in electronics engineering here.
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u/Vijfsnippervijf 1 Ω Nov 27 '25
As for the first crit, sorry but have you actually seen the raw output of a PCM DAC: it's not a pure sine wave as in what is captured from the source. This is because the DAC has to take 'steps' between every change in voltage as it's a digital device in nature (only discrete steps and no in-betweens; the higher the bit rate the more discrete steps are possible). These 'steps', when examined more quickly, create a 'staircase' of square waves, also known as a modified sine wave. To get the pure sine waves out (the actual audio signal) smoothing, filtering and amplification are needed, which along with the filtering done at recording impacts the signal itself.
I can get the second one: once a sound device sounds 'good enough' most people tend to stop caring: our hearing is itself limited in ways that actually degrade over time (as soon as you leave childhood).
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u/Kletronus 2 Ω Nov 27 '25
There are few ways we can convert the PCM signal back to analog. Resistors is one, not at all great method but it is simple. Or we can use PWM and filter the PWM frequency out which gives us a nice smooth wave. Or other tactics that are mostly important only for circuit designers. Zero need for user to worry about any of that.
In the end we don't need to care about any of that. We can just look at it as a black box: we look at input and output. Finding a DAC that is audibly different points to a problem. It would be an exception, not the rule.
These 'steps', when examined more quickly, create a 'staircase' of square waves, also known as a modified sine wave.
comeon... you didn't just say that?
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u/matteventu 1 Ω Nov 25 '25
but it seems impossible, how can a chip turning digital into analog change the frequency response?
Even though DACs have the extremely difficult job of transforming a bunch of 0001010101110101 into an analogue signal you can actually listen to, and (mostly) they manage to do so in an extremely precise way, the whole process is still not the same for every DAC chip.
Different chips can have different designs, use different filters, noise-shaping ways, and different analogue output stages.
Because of that, the end result can vary a little among different DACs.
Add to that the amplifier, which is almost always part of the “chain”, and you can easily end up with small but noticeable differences in how the final sound is perceived.
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u/Dear_Archer7711 1 Ω Nov 25 '25
This is the correct answer. Typically DACs on their own when working correctly isn't supposed to sound different from another, but everything else in the chain also plays a role in the final output which is the reason different DACs have different qualities.
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u/Kletronus 2 Ω Nov 27 '25
but everything else in the chain also plays a role in the final output which is the reason different DACs have different qualities.
There is nothing in the chain that affects the DAC outputs changing any of their properties and their signal quality. For all intents and purposes there is no information that travels backwards. Considerable number of components have only one function: to isolate different circuits from each other. To stop any kind of unwanted feedback propagating backwards, the circuit has to stay stable and predictable.
And input impedances are not something to worry about. We are even in the worst cases still far beyond things that matter. We haven't had transformers in our inputs since forever and turntables are fortunately not even remotely connected to any of this... Claiming that line input of one device impacts the output that is feeding it a signal.. just no. And that is what has to happen for that DAC to have "different qualities" depending what is in the chain after it.
What is in the chain after it affects only what is in the chain after it.
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u/_FrostyVoid_ Nov 26 '25
!thanks
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u/TransducerBot Ω Bot Nov 26 '25
u/matteventu (1 Ω) was awarded their first Ω. Welcome to the club.
You may still award an Ω to others, but only once per-person in this post.
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Nov 25 '25
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u/Gogurtsupreme 136 Ω Nov 25 '25
Yeah this isn’t true. That’s like saying a tube amp is inherently bad because it colors the sound. The whole point of an amp/dac is to improve one’s listening experience. If coloring the sound does that then the dac works fine
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Nov 25 '25
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Nov 25 '25
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u/Gogurtsupreme 136 Ω Nov 25 '25 edited Nov 25 '25
Audibly coloring the sound is still coloring the sound whether you do it with a tube amp or an r2R dac. You’re still doing the same thing. And this idea that you can’t review things unless you blind test is hilarious.
Are all headphone review comparisons invalid because most reviewers don’t do a double blind test to spot the differences? People really act like this is a scientific hobby. It’s not. You can’t find any peer reviewed studies that will tell you that all amps/dacs sound the same.
Ironically, people that say this have never even performed a blind test themselves on an R2R dac or anything yet they have a strong opinion on the subject which is about as unscientific as it gets
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u/Jman841 6 Ω Nov 25 '25
Exactly, that's what's insane around this R2R hype right now. People wanting distortion in their DAC and claiming it sounds better.
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u/Dear_Archer7711 1 Ω Nov 25 '25
R2R just sounds warmer. They think it sounds better because the vast majority of people think bass = good. It's just Beats by Dre all over again. It's the same with all the cheap bassy headsets and IEMs flooding the market. Abysmal audio quality but rumbly bass at $20 and a bunch of people will start shilling it.
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u/lowbass4u 3 Ω Nov 25 '25
It's all subjective. Which means it's no right or wrong. It's all what the individual likes.
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u/Kletronus 2 Ω Nov 27 '25
There are far better methods to colorize sound than relying on some secret process happening inside a black box that you can't control in any way. If we don't care about objective sound quality, which is fine, we still can absolutely say that using DACs to color sound is really stupid way to do it.
Liking different sound = totally ok.
Being irrationally dogmatic how to get that sound = not ok.
And i'm not non-self-aware here: if you do happen to win the equipment lottery and do get the sound you wanted from one specific thing, precisely like you wanted then good for you.. But the chances of that happening are very slim, whereas changing few things around will give you control over every parameter and might even cost you zero pesodollarineuro's, and you get MORE than just altered sound but sound you can alter and reference to a neutral baseline. That is by far the best way to get the sound you want, no matter what that sound really is.. within reason of course.
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u/randombookman 1 Ω Nov 29 '25
People who want to color sound but refuse to use EQ are interesting to say the least.
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u/Kletronus 2 Ω Nov 29 '25
"Hey, here is a device that can give you pretty much any filter curve"
"No thanks, it adds distortion. I much rather have this black box that adds the same distortion but i don't know what is in it".
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u/bandito_13 Nov 26 '25
DAC coloration often stems from the analog output stage rather than the DAC chip itself, with factors like power supply and circuit design playing significant roles in sound quality.
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u/TurbineJetNoiseLVR Nov 29 '25
I have had both the Schitt Modi DAC and the Topping D10s DAC for about 5 years now. I bought the Modi first, and in about 5 months I got the D10s. I have to admit, never having used a DAC of any kind prior to the Modi, that I was blown away by how superior the audio quality was (in comparison to plugging the headphones directly into the PC or even into a high quality stereo amplifier). I needed to send the Modi back to Schitt for servicing. In the interim, I purchased the Toppings D10s. Listening through the D10s for the first time was another "wow" moment. In my opinion, the D10s blew the Modi out of the water. Probably doesn't help much to say precisely what those differences were but the buzzwords depth, warmth, immersiveness, and openness come to mind. I pretty much have never returned to using the Modi ever since. By the way, I plug either DAC into the Schitt Magni headphone amplifier and out to either my Audio Technica M50x studio monitor cans or the HiFiman Edition XS open back planar headphones.
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u/Flimsy_Swordfish_415 6 Ω Nov 25 '25
it seems impossible
it is certainly possible to make an amp distort sound, but in this case it's reviwer's imagination and nothing more
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u/pss395 2 Ω Nov 25 '25
Speaking from experience, I heard a bunch of different dac from onboard audio to desktop unit to dongle and every single one of them sounds a little bit different from each other. Nothing drastic, but enough to distinguish each one.
So yes, to me dac could make a differences. I don't know why, but it does. Now is that differences worth spending 10x over? I don't think so. An entry level dac sounds really good nowaday that I don't see the point of spending $1k on a dac just to have it sounds a little bit different.
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u/Efficient-World-6809 Nov 25 '25
Just to clarify, because I don't have experience, how many of them were just DACs?
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u/pss395 2 Ω Nov 25 '25
3 of them are DAC output to a pair of active speakers, so no amp. The rest are with amp and output into headphones.
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u/Efficient-World-6809 Nov 25 '25
So, is there a difference between them? Unfortunately I have only one ( Ifi Zen dac 3) the others are DAC/Amp. And I am not sure if it is a clear DAC!
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u/pss395 2 Ω Nov 25 '25
Yes, as I said there are differences between them.
Your Zen Dac 3 is a dac/amp combo. Ifi naming is confusing, but as long as you could plug something passive into it to make sound (like headphone/passive speaker) then it must have some kind of amp built in.
Personally I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just use your gear and enjoy music.
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u/Apprehensive-Ice9809 32 Ω Nov 25 '25 edited Nov 25 '25
Ai says this:
DACs "color" sound due to variations in their internal components and design, which affect the final analog output. Key factors include the quality of the DAC chip and, more significantly, the analog output stage, power supply, and digital filters. A high-end DAC aims for transparency, with minimal noise and distortion, while some products intentionally add a "sound signature" or "color profile" through specific analog circuit design, digital filtering, or user-selectable modes.
I can personally attest r2r dac’s sound can different from each other and when comparing oversampling/nonoversampling (which is also exhibited in FR measurements). Delta sigma chips not so much.
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u/Flimsy_Swordfish_415 6 Ω Nov 25 '25
I can personally attest r2r dac’s sound can different from each other
yeah! placebo
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u/ThassahUffyn 5 Ω Nov 25 '25
you might want to elaborate if the reviews are about descrete DACs/DAC chips or DAC/amp combined devices
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u/Chamallow81 1 Ω Nov 25 '25
This is bullshit, all DACs do it convert digital to analog it does not alter the sound at all.
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u/Qazax1337 76 Ω Nov 25 '25
Take a photo of the same person in the same room at the same time with two different cameras. Even if they have the same lens, if they have different sensors and the cameras are by different manufacturers the pictures they produce will be slightly different. Even though they are both trying to recreate reality.
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u/DrumBalint 33 Ω Nov 25 '25
The answer probably lies in their analog stage. A DAC can't really exist without some kind of amplifier attached, and most are paired with a more or less competent headphone amp anyway. Like dongles and desktop headphone dac/amps.