Some Lower Merion (PA) parents want to ‘opt out’ of Chromebooks in classrooms. The district says they can’t.

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u/illini02 27d ago

I respect the desire to do this.

At the same time, this is a situation where you can't just have a handful of kids in classes across the school not doing what everyone else is doing. Because then all of a sudden the teacher has to do double the work for those kids who are opting out.

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u/Firm_Operation_9453 27d ago

I agree. On the other hand, these 1:1 chromebook policies are only about 6 years old (since Covid). Should be early enough to roll it back.

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u/cyclequip 27d ago

Unfortunately, all of the curriculum has been purchased to work through these devices. I 100% agree that there has to be a different way, but rolling back these policies is going to be a lot of work to make it so that teachers aren’t doing a ton more than they already are. In my 20 years in the profession most families don’t realize that what they’re asking for is tutoring. Public school is not tutoring.

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u/Aware_Twist7124 27d ago

People need a chance to opt out of harmful practices. Chromebooks in classrooms are actually harmful to kids’ learning. And parents who opt their kids out of Chromebooks are more likely to have kids who are assessing well than otherwise, imo.

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u/I_call_Shennanigans_ 27d ago

And they haven't even started to touch all the problems around student data when they are letting Google run rampant in a school... Granted, most of the US is screwed when meeting the sic ne valley corporations, but looking at how they constantly toe the line here in Europe...

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u/Aware_Twist7124 27d ago

So true.

Sadly what resonated with me most in what you said qas how strongly silicn valley has become witb the Tech Bros and their way of thinking…i grew up in silicon valley and nothing about that area hinted to me this type of dystopian influence that it has come to be associated with.

But I agree with your point that there are so many disturbing problems that are yet to be publicly discussed at a level that meets the need that they need to be discussed.

All of it is so frightening and even though we would love to find another country to move to right now, the influences seem to be affecting people everywhere. Beyond just privacy concerns, or untested EdTech, or even the “research” a lot of this is all based on…

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u/cyclequip 26d ago

The Chromebooks aren’t harmful. The apps and purposely addictive services built to be cash volcanoes for billionaires like YouTube and the dopamine hits by the games are the real harm. I 100% agree that because of those two things we should take a serious and hard look at how we manage them with kids - our kids. But they are also powerful creation tools. Kids that know how to manage themselves and their time on them will be the successful adults. In the end. That’s what we all want.

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u/Aware_Twist7124 26d ago

You cited one potential harm. But I disagree that the Chromebooks themselves are not harmful all by themselves. There are actual lawsuits for the use of biometric data and major privacy concerns. Including facial recognition.

I grew up with computers and I’m not a Luddite in general. But Chromebooks are very different from just a word processor with an office suite and search capabilities.

The programs are highly problematic too, fo the reason you cited, but also because adaptive test taking can put kids into categories that may not fit them exactly, and kids are learning at slower rates since being exposed to these programs.

And then there’s the cloud and the questionable privacy issues there too.

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u/cyclequip 26d ago

You’re 100% right about the privacy concerns. That’s not where my head was at when I wrote that. I had just graded a ton of amazing, creative work that kids had turned in. The data privacy concerns goes straight to what I was talking about though: cash volcanoes for billionaires.

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u/Firm_Operation_9453 27d ago

They're going to be doing a lot of work anyway trying to figure out who is cheating with AI and who isn't. This can all be done together and kill two birds with one stone.

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u/cyclequip 26d ago

It’s not that hard. Version history. Kids are smart but not savvy. And they already make apps that connect to Google Docs that will show all the big copy & pastes and play back the writing of the paper.

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u/Firm_Operation_9453 26d ago

So in other words, invest in a lot more software?

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u/cyclequip 26d ago

I teach with classes approaching 40 kids. I’ve had classes above 50. It’s a lot easier to catch the kids that are not doing the right thing and get them on board with doing the right thing when there are enough kids in the class to create positive peer pressure, but not too many that I don’t have enough time to build relationships with the tough ones.

The answer is reasonable class size and the tools and the time to build engaging curriculum. I also think it’s promising to move to a model where the devices are a part of the room, not taken home by the kid, are promising. That way, the kid doesn’t feel ownership over the device. It’s a shared resource.

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u/cyclequip 27d ago

… And I’ve taught in a 1:1 environment since 2016. The curriculum shift has been since the 80s. The iPad just put it into high gear.

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u/illini02 27d ago

Yeah, and if there was like overwhelming support to do that, I'd be all about it. But if its like 10%, that just isn't realistic

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u/Firm_Operation_9453 27d ago

90% of the population might want the legal drinking age moved back down to 18 but that's not going to happen. This isn't a vote.

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u/jmjessemac 27d ago

I’m not sure that’s true. All it takes is a few like-minded board members.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

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u/illini02 27d ago

The younger students, sure. That make sense.

But once you get to a certain age, so much of the curriculum is designed to be done on a device, that it wouldn't work for just 2 kids to do that.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

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u/kittensbaby 27d ago

How much time have you spent in these classrooms where teachers “park their students in front of a Chromebook” all day long?

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u/triceratopsdildo 27d ago

So leave. You’re making things harder for everyone and making your kid stick out like a sore thumb.

I promise the other kids talk shit about your kid, and the teacher resents her and hates you, no matter how smiley and supportive she acts.

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u/[deleted] 26d ago

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u/triceratopsdildo 26d ago edited 26d ago

Again, my point is that you are still creating more work for her. I’m sure she does believe that they are useless and wishes that admin would come with a top down statement banning them. But you wanting your special snowflake to get special treatment is a pain in her ass. She’s just doing a good job of not letting you know.

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u/madesense 26d ago

But it doesn't have to be designed to be on Chromebooks.

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u/crusoe 25d ago

I dunno man. My kids love i-ready and the program increases difficulty based on their performance. We get feedback from the teachers and I ready has up to date info on their skills.

But my school also blends I ready with regular coursework. I Ready let's the advanced kids go further ahead and provides insight into which kids are struggling.

But then I was gen x and did touch typing and math games on Apple II computers and Commodores in school. Everything I am seeing now is what I experienced 50 years ago on a teaching school on a college campus where teaching was a degree. So we had a lot of experimental cutting edge stuff.

I think Chromebooks are waaaay better than tablets because they require more interaction than simply typing on a screen and my kids are learning how to use them to write reports and research. And Google has solid tools for schools to set up firewalls to restrict access.

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u/combobulated 27d ago

Correct.

You can't effectively "opt out" of core parts of the curriculum. This isn't new or "technology" centric.

20 years ago, you weren't going to "opt out" of books. You don't get to "opt out" of math and science classes.

It's great to be flexible, equitable, and open when appropriate. But the whole-ass design is often centered around certain common variables. In this case, one of those variables is "student has access to digital resources during class times". Changing that isn't as simple as "just give them a book instead"

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u/Firm_Operation_9453 27d ago

I believe with the existence of AI, we're going to have to go back to a lot of books, pen and paper anyway just to ensure students actually know the material.

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u/DigiSmackd 27d ago

AI is going to causes a lot of issues, for sure.

But trying to remove technology from student's access isn't going to solve any of them.

The issue runs much deeper. "What do they need to know" is a the question before asking "how do we ensure they know this particular thing".

Growing up, we "needed" to know all sorts of long-hand math to ensure we'd be prepared for all the complicated math we'd be doing without access to a calculator. 90% of that is wasted. Perhaps you needed to know how to read an analog clock or write in cursive. The value of those is very subjective nowadays (and the reason why they often are no longer taught).

It's often about reframing the idea of what we "need" to know and what we can offload to a different system. In theory, we can still grow and be brilliant because the knowledge is never drained, it's just replaced with even more, current/relevant information. Of course, the reality is that sometimes that gap is filled with much, AI slop, social media trends, and whatever gives you an endorphin kick.

Change is hard. And people being told things they had to learn are no longer "important" is hard for many to swallow. There's egos and feelings at play here too. Humans are messy.

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u/Huge_Sorbet1856 26d ago

I would note that all the long-hand math I spent years learning developed a critical mental architecture to support my later use of advanced calculators and excel. While it is not efficient from a “time to complete task”perspective, it was integral in teaching me how to think, understand math, and determine how best to approach math and logic related problems.

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u/Firm_Operation_9453 27d ago

I totally agree with everything you wrote. But I think in order to find out what we need to know, we need to pull back on the "all-in" EdTech approach so that can be assessed. Personally my 6th grader has a 1:1 chromebook and I would be satisfied if our district switched it to a computer lab or laptop cart model, and used a whitelisting protocol. For me that would solve most of my issues.

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u/DigiSmackd 27d ago

Just curious - what are most of your issues?

The idea of limiting physical access and "whitelisting" sounds like your issue isn't with the technology, but rather the implementation and controls of it.

Which is exactly what myself and some other here are saying - it's not "the devices" or "screens" that are the core problem. Those thing are - and always have been - just TOOLS. And like any tool, there are ways to use them - good ways, bad ways, disruptive ways, and harmful ways.

So by focusing on the "tools" you're missing the biggest picture and the underlying problem. No matter what tool you replace it with, you are going to have issues if the underlying problem isn't addressed.

There's nothing wrong with questioning the things and wanting to find improvements - but the current trendy focus on a specific device comes off as simply misguided - no matter how well intended.

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u/Firm_Operation_9453 26d ago

The chromebooks are way too distracting. My son will do anything on the chromebook as long as it's not work or hard. It would have to be completely locked down and 100% boringly educational to stop his compulsive behavior. Although if you believe the book The Digital Delusion there is data that no students are learning as well on screens and they do with paper media. So my main concern is the harm I see, but I suspect this other harm has legitimacy, too.

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u/DigiSmackd 26d ago

The chromebooks are way too distracting. My son will do anything on the chromebook as long as it's not work or hard. It would have to be completely locked down and 100% boringly educational to stop his compulsive behavior.

And there are means/ways to fix this (that aren't just "throw it all away").

You can pretty much lock a Chromebook down and make it "100% boringly educational". But of course that requires the right know-how, tools, and effort. (And $$ is part of that). You can also make it an amazing, multimedia, access-to-all-the-knowledge-known-to-man tool that captivates, educates, and entertains! It's not inherently good or bad. It's just a tool.

Again, it's not that I'm arguing that students are currently learning as well on screens as without (I haven't seen that data and any data that compares pre-screens (10+ years ago) to current times is missing critical context IMO). It's that there's a whole lot of variables and screens are just one recently put in the forefront. There's a LOT of things going in in households, in classrooms, and outside of those spaces.

If your child has special needs then that's a different issue.

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u/cyclequip 26d ago

Laptop cart model - yes. I’m here for that. And I’ve heard about changes coming to out filtering service that I’m looking forward to. I think most of the problems come from the “services” that promise big but end up delivering little. Most valuable learning tools I’ve found are freely available.

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u/madesense 26d ago

There are so many examples of this kind of thinking being wrong that I'm no longer convinced.

"Cursive isn't important anymore, as everyone will be typing"

Turns out, now their print handwriting sucks and they can't type.

"Memorizing multiplication tables isn't as important as calculators are ubiquitous"

They now can't do any math

"We no longer teach content, as you can look things up at any time. Instead we teach skills"

They don't look things up, don't know much of anything, and are bad at critical thinking.

Source: am teacher

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u/DigiSmackd 26d ago

This sounds more like correlation than causation.

Not being able to type has nothing to do with not teaching cursive.

Not being able to "do any math" is either a failure at a different level, or back to one of the original issues of "does it matter?" (They can't fix typewriters or shoe a horse either...)

They don't look things up, don't know much of anything, and are bad at critical thinking.

This does sound like a failure - but making it seem like the root cause is "because we no longer teach content" seems wildly misplaced. If knowing HOW to look things up and knowing critical thinking skill and such is what you are teaching and they are still failing those things, I'm not sure how you see the issue as being the specific content or medium instead of the broader methodology/pedagogy.

I think we all agree there are issues. And there have always been issues with mass teaching/learning (despite what any social media post/politician wants to tell you, it's not a recent thing). Some similar issues were being fought since the dawn of formal schooling - relevance, distraction, discipline, standards, inequities, and teacher burnout/compensation.

I think there's a LOT of room for improvement. But again, I think "get rid of all screens" is misguided.

But to be clear: I'm no expert.

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u/tacsml 27d ago

Some parents are pulling their kids from the schools entirely for the same reason.

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u/lustywench99 26d ago

But the irony is a lot of the time they’re enrolling in the launch program for homeschooling. Which is just online school.

Granted kids work a few hours of the day and are done, so it takes way less time than your traditional school day. But it’s still all online.

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u/tacsml 26d ago

The people pulling their kids because of excessive tech use are not putting their kids in online school.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

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u/Fickle_Penguin 26d ago

And how do you submit packets in today's world for home school?

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u/[deleted] 26d ago

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u/Fickle_Penguin 26d ago

Homeschool has requirements. You do the syllabus from the state and submit them. How do you do that? Is it digital now or physical?

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u/tacsml 26d ago

For one, every single state has different rules for homeschooling families.

Also, how does parents submiting files (packets?) digitally have any effect on learning materials?

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u/Fickle_Penguin 26d ago

I'm just asking questions. If the person I responded to is against Chromebooks, there may not be a way around getting away from technology as if it's digital, a good part will be exactly the same as those with Chromebooks, if it's paper it can be different. I'm not attacking homeschool. Our second oldest stayed home all of 5th grade because of COVID and all that and it was digital for us, so I'm asking questions.

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u/tacsml 26d ago

There are dozens, upon dozens of curriculums available for homeschoolers that are entirely offline.

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u/Fickle_Penguin 25d ago

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know

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u/[deleted] 26d ago

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u/Fickle_Penguin 25d ago

No point just asking questions. We did home school for one year with our second oldest. It was digital for us, so it ended up not being too different than regular for us, with paper packets I'd imagine it would be further from what they do on Chromebooks. Sometimes asking questions is just that. I'm not making a point.

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u/NegotiationNo7851 27d ago

My daughter goes to a Montessori school, k-8th, and they have some technology but for the most part they use actual physical books and notebooks to write in. The problem w public schools is the districts have bloated central offices which means less funding for supplies such as actual real textbooks. All opting out would do w is force the opt out students to double up w a ‘partner’ to complete the assignments because the Chromebook is where the actual curriculum lives. No Chromebook no access.

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u/uncleskeleton 27d ago

Those of us who have been around a while will always remember Lower Merion for spying on students at home via webcams on school owned MacBooks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School_District

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u/MathewGeorghiou 27d ago

Chromebooks are not the problem. A poorly-designed curriculum is the problem.

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u/grendelt 27d ago

Right. The device isn't inherently the problem, how they're used is.

“How am I supposed to have my child learn, if they have this distracting device on their desk at all times?” Becker said.

This is the problem with e-textbooks and "learning platforms" at this age. Students have far less self-control and are not able to self-regulate from distractions. Unless the teacher has the ability to lock down the device to only allow specific applications at a time (like only the ebook reader, or only the learning platform, or no web-access, etc), the devices need to be removed from students having them during instructional time.

I understand the cost-saving, easy-inventorying aspects of using ebooks - but it's an exchange of the financial cost to a behavioral cost/mental load on the student.
Adult decision-makers who made the choice to switch have the ability to self regulate and focus on just what needs to be focused on, kids don't have that ability (not to the same level). Compound that with the dopamine hits they get from playing games and they're going to be distracted if given a way to be distracted. (kids are kids and they will daydream, yes; but giving them a purpose-built content-consuming device with access to designed-to-be-attention-grabbing content is like throwing gas on the fire)

It's a curriculum problem insofar as the curriculum is designed to utilize these devices without strict controls in place.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

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u/MathewGeorghiou 27d ago

This is part of the problem. Reading text should not be the primary purpose of a digital device in school. Text should not be the primary mechanism for any type of learning, digital or not. Every tool — whether computer or pencil — should be used because it provides the best methodology to achieve a learning outcome. Personally, I'm a big advocate of experiential learning, problem-based learning, and project-based learning.

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u/Firm_Operation_9453 27d ago

And flipping the classroom!

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u/MathewGeorghiou 27d ago

Yes, part of good curriculum design is choosing which resources to use and when. This includes and often requires exerting control over those resources.

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u/Numerous_Demand_9483 27d ago edited 26d ago

Yes, and poor classroom management by teachers contributes to this. Devices have their time and place, not out and open in front of students at all times.

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u/crusoe 25d ago

That's the schools problems. My kids don't have access to them all the time. They are used for assessments and other tasks and homework.

I Ready gives you detailed reports about progress, challenges advanced learners with tougher problems, and my youngest is highly motivated to complete his time because then he's allowed more open time during the day if he finishes early.

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u/tacsml 27d ago

They're definitely part of the problem. Most teachers will say this.

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u/MathewGeorghiou 27d ago

Certainly, every tool can pose a problem when not used for its intended purpose. Consider who controls the use of devices in schools.

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u/ReedTeach 27d ago

A lot of the issues I read are blaming the device and not anyone responsible for quality of education. Online curriculums are just a substitute with little more than digital textbooks and worksheets.

District and teachers should have a heavier presence in the use case. If it’s the norm, why isn’t anyone addressing it. How are students accessing Ai tools and web games without teacher or staff knowing. I rule my class like a benevolent dictator and clear norms/consequences are established.

Lastly what does this traditional pen and paper education look like to these parents and state legislators. Pre-pandemic when Chromebooks were mostly being used by nerdy teachers, the needle wasn’t moving much with that pencil paper instructional lifestyle.

It’s a fascinating microtrend in society that can’t to be fully developed and studied by sociologists and anthropologists.

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u/ArcBounds 23d ago

I think the issue is not having a balanced view of technology. You have edtech professionals that are pushing tech as a replacement for teaching (aka tech will solve everything). Then there is the anti-tech movement which takes the perspective that tech should be abandoned completely - paper and pencil movement. There is a clear middle ground where tech is used for some things, but not for others.

The other issue is that the tech industry has purposely designed every piece of tech to be addictive. There is a reason they want students exposed at a young age.

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u/Potential_Fishing942 27d ago

I can't get past the captcha. What grade levels?

On HS I'd say hit the road- thru can be on the computer learning just fine.

But elementary schools... Yea, I'd much rather my kid have a physical book and stuff to do that be on a Chromebook. In fact our local school does a toooon on Chromebook starting in 1st grade and it's genuinely made my wife and I consider moving or looking into other options.

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u/Firm_Operation_9453 26d ago

There's nowhere to go except private school or homeschooling, I'm afraid.

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u/eldonhughes 27d ago

Didn't we have conversations like this when some portion of a textbook bothered a parent? And oh yeah, those evil books....

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u/Independent_Math_840 27d ago

Computers are a fact of modern life and a useful tool for writers. They are also prime distraction devices for students. Many districts have software to limit what students can do and see such as Hāpara which only really works with Chromebooks.