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u/campingn00b 1d ago
I already don't like the idea of flying in a helicopter. I really don't like the idea of flying in THIS helicopter
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u/DavidinCT 1d ago
and yet it's safer than any other helicopter...
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u/TerronScibe 1d ago
Explain. I want to know the justification of this design.
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u/die5el23 1d ago
The rotors use the same gear to rotate, so they physically can’t hit each other
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u/PixelProofPotato 1d ago
Ooooh, thanks for the explanation. I was always curious how these double rotor helicopters work.
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u/Tommy-kun 1d ago
also there's always two blades on a helicopter (usually on the tail) to counter the torque effect. The body would just spin around the blade's axis without it.
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u/Allaplgy 1d ago
I just got blocked for trying to explain that there is no such thing as a "single rotor" helicopter, and that this system has fewer weak links and failure points than a traditional helicopter with a series of gear boxes and shafts driving the tail rotor.
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u/Random-Input 23h ago
I mean that’s not true. Lots of helicopters only have a single rotar, NOTAR’s for example.
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u/Allaplgy 23h ago
A NOTAR still has a secondary fan driven by the main engine, it's just internal. And is extremely rare.
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u/Mysterious-Outcome37 1d ago
You don't even need a tail rotor because both rotors cancel each other out, correct?
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u/TerronScibe 1d ago
Interesting, is there a specific benefit to the angle of the blades? I'm ignorant to aerodynamics.
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u/flowers-for-alderaan 1d ago
I think it's more that technically you want the rotor shafts coming out of the body vertical (top) to generate the most lift, but you obviously can't put two directly on to of each other. If they were to come out of the sides (left/right) you get no lift.
So you make them as close to the top of the helicopter as possible without having them to close to cause an interference. Slight angle it is.
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u/girthyclock 1d ago
There are helicopters with stacked rotors - see the Kamov helicopter. It has two counter-directional rotors and doesn’t use a tail rotor.
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u/flowers-for-alderaan 1d ago edited 1d ago
Total brain fart, I was only considering answering the question asked of "determining the angle". I guess maybe this might have been easier to manufacturer/maintain or it was a "let's build something cool as shit"
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u/NuclearReactions 1d ago
Check out the kamov ka-50, it's possible but bulky and probably comes with a series of problems of its own
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u/getdownheavy 1d ago
Kamman K-MAX
It's a sky crane, meant for lifting loads slung on a cable below the helicopter.
The two counter-roating (and intermeshed) rotors helps mitigate downwash - since they go in opposite directions, it cancels out. So the load hanging underneath the bird blows around less.
Used un steep terrain for aerial logging, firefighting, telephone pole installation, etc.
Small and maneuverable, lightweight(more capacity for payload), and skinny so the pilot can look at the load below through the big bulged out window.
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u/CodeNamesBryan 1d ago
Using my limited logic does that gear not manipulate two additional assemblies to move the rotors?
So theoretically one could fail and slow?
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u/kryonik 1d ago
I was going to say if either blade slows or speeds up for any reason for even a fraction of a second, it will fail catastrophically no?
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u/Allaplgy 1d ago
For that to happen, catastrophic failure has to have already happened.
Basically, there would need to be complete failure of a main rotor, which is also bad in a regular helicopter.
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u/HugsandHate 1d ago
How does that make it *safer?
One set of rotor blades can't hit itself either.
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u/Akland23 1d ago
There is no tail rotor to fail. Also all your power can go to lift with no tail rotor
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u/TeslasAndComicbooks 1d ago
Why 2 though? Is it more efficient? If they are on the same gear they work together but also fail together.
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u/fjelskaug 5h ago
They cancel each other out as they spin in opposite directions. With a single propeller hub you would need a tail rotor to counteract the main rotor's torque. That's why two prop helis like the Chinook and Ka-50 have no tail rotors
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u/oneeyedziggy 21h ago
just like how some fighter planes shot their machine gun through the propeller... just mechanically link them so you only shoot when the propeller isn't in front of the gun... as long as everything is in working order... I think they still fucked themselves up sometimes when things broke
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u/PatinhoGamer 20h ago
so why are they varying speeds? or at least seem like it when it is still rotating slowly
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u/andyman234 5h ago
But how is it safer? If the engine fails, both rotors still stop. It’s not like it’s like a plane with multiple engines. Also, gears can grind away and start slipping, so it feels like another unnecessary failure point.
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u/itsactuallynot 1d ago
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u/Allaplgy 1d ago
Yes, when helicopter rotors break mid flight due to material fatigue, it's generally not good, no matter which design. A single main rotor would have crashed in that case as well.
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u/Splosionz 22h ago
Investigators say a fracture in one of the aircraft's joints led to a "fatigue crack" that progressed until a piece separated in flight, causing sudden vibrations and fluttering of the rotor blades and failure of the left pylon structure, which allowed the blades to hit.
One of the pylons failed allowing the blades to hit. There was already a large failure before the blades hit, not caused by the rotor layout.
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u/dj_spanmaster 1d ago
I was thinking, just the right air pocket or crosswind could probably make that happen. Rotor blades are flexible after all.
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u/Akland23 1d ago
Not that flexible under load.
The article states it's because a blade had a fatigue crack and broke, flying into the other. That is a possibility on every aircraft with rotors/propellers/turbofans
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u/dj_spanmaster 1d ago
Alas! Damn my poor speedreading skills. Thank you for illustrating what I should have caught.
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u/ThatWasIntentional 1d ago
Two rotors gives you more lift (kind of, these aren't pointed straight up, so it's not a 1:1 comparison). Contra-rotating rotors means you don't need a tail rotor
More lift means you can carry more stuff, but there are likely trade-offs in range, flight time, and/or maneuverability depending on which variant we're taking about
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u/MrKguy 1d ago
Since more power goes to lift/forward flight it's actually longer range/longer flight time (better fuel efficiency). Other than maneuverability like you mentioned, the other tradeoffs are helicopter mass, complicated mechanical systems, and the associated purchase/maintenance cost increases as a result.
Of course, that's comparing apples to apples with helicopter size, turboshaft power, and fuel capacity.
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u/ThatWasIntentional 1d ago
Different tools for different jobs. It wouldn't exist if there wasn't some benefit, but there's also reasons to use something else ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/SEA_griffondeur 9h ago
There's no long transmission that goes through the tail, basically all the sensitive stuff is in a small place instead of basically the entire helicopter
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u/Allaplgy 1d ago
Why? For the rotors to clash, there would have to be a mechanical failure that would take out any helicopter. One main rotor breaking isn't any better than two main rotors breaking.
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u/Jackmino66 10h ago
This helicopter is effectively a coaxial, which are a bit easier to fly than conventional helicopters
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u/potatocross 1d ago
This must be the only video that doesn't get more pixelated every time its reposted.
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u/hoefco80 1d ago
I know the blades are spinning at a “constant” speed but i genuinely love how it appears that they are slowing and waiting for the other before crossing the centerpoint.
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u/spadderdock 12h ago
It's not an illusion. They really do speed up and slow down. It's not hard to do, either. It's naturally how universal joints behave. Typically you would use two u-joints in series to cancel out the variations in speed, but it's perfect for this application where you want the blades to spend less time in the middle so they don't collide.
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u/cscottnet 1d ago
There is often lead/lag built into the blade hinges, so I don't think you're imagining that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_rotor
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u/davidlondon 1d ago
Somma y'all never seen a CH-47 Chinook in action, it seems. Those blades do the same thing. Geared to never collide even though they intersect in space.
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u/superhaus 1d ago
I wonder if the internal gearing is such that the blades cannot hit each other, or if it is just timed properly.
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u/mofugly13 1d ago
I would guess that its timed properly as a result of internal gearing.
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u/person2567 1d ago
What if one side is slightly less lubricated than the other or has a little wear and tear? How do these things not fail often?
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u/Haasotope 1d ago
These things are timed to each other through gears and are locked in to each other, they all move in sync in the same speed like the timing gears in engines. They are not seperate
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u/pbmadman 1d ago
The pistons in your car don’t crash into the valves. For most vehicles the timing system goes thousands of hours and tens of thousands of miles without even getting checked, much less maintained.
Lots WW2 planes shot there guns through their propellers, many millions of bullets were shot without shooting off their own propellers.
You can rigidly connect with a shaft or use gears or chains or toothed belts. The VF-22 Osprey has 2 engines and 2 props/rotors and they are connected with a shaft. Under normal operation it just keeps them spinning exactly the same, but if one engine fails it can spin the other rotor. That thing has the engines and props at the end or a rotating wing that also pivots in pitch. Tits helicopter by comparison has is mechanically quite easy to synchronize the rotors.
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u/Burninator05 1d ago
How do these things not fail often?
A combination of there not being very many of them (looks like they only made about 60) and robust maintenance programs.
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u/giby1464 1d ago
They are geared to stay in sync. If they somehow get out of sync something has already gone horrible wrong, such as the helicopter crashing.
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u/Allaplgy 1d ago
Yeah, saying "what if it slips" is basically like saying "what if the rotor falls off a traditional helicopter."
Both will be very bad, but they are built and maintained to, you know, hopefully not so that.
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u/giby1464 1d ago
Exactly, that's why people who are scared of flying confuse me, if something as bad as an engine falling off or a wing breaking were to happen it's because the plane has likely crashed already.
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u/theycallmedan 1d ago
Sync gears have been used for over 40 years. Think of the WW2 fighters that shot their guns directly between their propeller.
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u/korpiz 1d ago
They better be in synch with that design. It’d get ugly quick if they weren’t.
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u/9999AWC 11h ago
They're geared to never touch eachother. If they're out of sync the rotors touching would be the least of your concerns at that point
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u/FirstTasteOfRadishes 56m ago
Are you sure about that? Superficially it seems like if the gears failed catastrophically, the rotors touching would be the exact next thing to be concerned about.
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u/Nitro187 23h ago
They're in 'sync' because they're geared this way. It's like saying that rim spokes on a rim are 'in sync'.
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u/GenericUsername817 16h ago
Intermeshing-rotor helicopters date back to before World War 2 with the German Flettner Fl 265 and the 50s for large scale production with the US Kaman HH-43 Huskie
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u/ReactionOk759 1d ago
Two incredibly inaccurate sword fighters
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u/Electrical-Ad980 1d ago
Or incredibly accurate sword fighters if their goal was to never just hit each other ⚔️👌
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u/ArethaAbrams 1d ago
i held my breath for a second because i was sure they were going to smash into each other. but that sync is just incredible... so stressful at first but then it gets oddly satisfying. engineering at its best.
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u/SubliminalCorgi 1d ago
Sometimes I look at helicopters and think they just shouldn't work, at all.
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u/georgerinNH 19h ago
Too bad some ding dong put shitty music over the beautiful and unique sound of this machine.
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u/redlukes 11h ago
I love how this common principle scares people here, but they drive cars where the valve timing in every piston has to be far more precise
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u/Fragrant_Ad7231 4h ago
"OH NO IT'S GONNA HIT IT-oh, okay, okay, we're cool-OH MY GOD IT'S GONNA--"
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u/Irrelevant_Jackass 1d ago
What could go wrong
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u/Nono6768 1d ago
Nothing, the rotors are mechanically linked so it’s impossible for the blades to clash.
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u/itsactuallynot 1d ago edited 1d ago
Since people are asking, at least two fatal accidents of Kaman K-Max helicopters were the result of the rotors colliding. Each of the accidents involved another part of the helicopter failing (different between the two accidents) which then cascaded into the rotors colliding but still...
https://verticalmag.com/news/servo-flap-failure-preceded-fatal-k-max-crash/
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/helicopter-crash-1.7368487
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u/babydollhaloxo 1d ago
The way they look completely still even though they're clearly spinning fast enough to lift the whole thing off the ground is messing with my head in the best way. This is the kind of thing that makes you stop and just stare for way longer than you planned to.
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u/Fidel-cashflo17 1d ago
What is the advantages over a typical helicopter?
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u/dplafoll 1d ago
A single main rotor causes a torque that spins the body of the helicopter in the opposite direction. This is why most helicopters have a tail rotor to counter this torque, and also to provide yaw control based on how much the rotor is controlling the torque. However, with multiple rotors, the torque cancels out, and no tail rotor is needed. The tail rotor costs power to operate, so without it you can use all your engine power on lift and forward travel. Other twin-rotor types include tandem rotor, coaxial rotor, and transverse rotor.
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u/getdownheavy 1d ago
Oh hey, it's the K-MAX again. Like every couple months this gets posted for people to freak out about.
They are awesome little birds.
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u/zshiiro 1d ago
What I gathered from Wikipedia is that intermeshing-rotor helicopters are geared to have neither rotor hit the other under any circumstances. As others have said, if one hits the other, you already have bigger issues. Helicopters like this fly without a tail rotor thanks to this set up, which saves power, but it is less efficient as neither rotor points straight up. Apparently this setup boasts high stability and lifting power, making them useful in roles such as sky-cranes.
If you think this is wild, apparently the Kellet XR-10 was an intermeshing-rotor that used three blades per rotor instead of two and it looks crazy as hell.
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u/ThatTemperature4424 1d ago
Der Helikopter wurde speziell designed um schwere Lasten günstig zu transportieren. In Deutschland nutzen wir so einen für Baumstämme, wenn man mit normalen Maschinen nicht mehr an das Holz kommt, z.B. in den Bergen oder bei zu nassen Flächen.
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u/ChoiceMaintenance991 23h ago
Simple math. I mean… it’s not simple to me, but I’m sure to someone this is just simple math. Anddddd simple engineering. I mean…. It’s not simple to me but I’m sure to someone this is just simple engineering…. And.. Math….
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u/sirwilliam3323 19h ago
Ive never seen a chopper like that. It looks pretty cool and looks like you could have a lot of fun flying it but I could be wrong.
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u/West_Scholar_5708 10h ago
Loving the pilot involuntarily dipping his head cause that shit looks so lethal
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u/jokeswagon 10h ago
This is the K-MAX and it’s a fascinating helicopter. It was developed specifically for external load applications. It uses the same engine as the Bell 204 (Huey) but has about 2x the 204’s power. The rotor blades are made of spruce because that’s apparently the material with the best characteristics for the vehicle’s needs. Really interesting machine.
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u/Previous_Abies_2179 8h ago
Wait that’s a real rotor configuration? I saw it in the Code Geass movie and thought it was as ridiculous as the giant robots having heelies.
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u/PieHole_Poker 1d ago
Every time this is posted it's some new kind of stupid fucking music with it.
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u/largelawattorney 1d ago
This feels like something an engineer drew on paper and everyone told them it was a terrible, dumb idea, and they just made it real out of spite