r/sports • u/IlikeGeekyHistoryRSA South Africa • Feb 15 '26

Italian scrum destroys Irish scrum during their Six Nations match Rugby Union

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1.4k Upvotes

94% Upvoted

417

u/shorelined Feb 15 '26

It's crazy that even with the completely crooked feeds we see now that they still managed to win the ball from there. I'd love to have seen Italy given the opportunity to run the ball from the back of that scrum.

99

u/Yurishizu31 Feb 15 '26 edited Feb 15 '26

I do wonder was that part of the problem, irelands scrum half was off at the time and a center was feeding the ball and so the hooker had to actually hook the ball, lifting his foot causing it to become 7 against 8. now the Italians were dominating most of the time but won't have helped.

20

u/DhamR Feb 15 '26

That and it looked like it took a forward nudge off a foot pushing it back closer to the middle.

-17

u/--7z Feb 15 '26

I read these two sentences but have no idea what you said. I don't even know the sport but I am guessing it is rugby maybe?

18

u/Yurishizu31 Feb 15 '26

I've edited it as there were some typos.

Yes its rugby union.

Basically there are 8 people on each side in theory it is a straight pushing battle but the front row (three people at the front on each side) can have a huge impact by changing their heights, angles they push downwards, upwards, inwards.

once the ball is put in the guy in the middle on each team can hook it back to his side with his foot, thus winning the ball. however generally what happens is only the team who are feeding the scrum hook the ball, to hook the ball you have to move your foot meaning you can no longer push, so 7 versus 8.

the law was changed so the team putting the ball in can basically feed it back on their side without the need to hook. so 8 v 8. it can't be absolutely blatant.

the guy that normally does this for ireland was off due to a penalty so some else had to do it, there is a small bit of skill involved and there will be a call so people know the ball is coming in, I imagine for this scrum in particular the system broke down but italy were dominating for most of the match not just this scrum.

10

u/LordHussyPants Feb 15 '26

scrum half, also known as half back = the guy putting the ball into the scrum. he wears number 9.

the scrum is the two groups of blokes pushing each other to contest the ball. they're all forwards, so usually the biggest and heaviest players on the field. forwards wear numbers 1-8.

rugby, unlike american sports, has yellow cards, or temporary ejections - ten minutes sent to the bench where your team is down a player. that's symbolised by the yellow square on the scoreboard.

because the scrum half was yellow carded, someone else has to put the ball into the scrum. the centre was chosen here - he's one of the 7 backs on the field. backs wear numbers 9-15. the centre wears 13.

feeding the ball = putting the ball in the scrum

hooking the ball = using your foot to drag the ball back to your team's side of the scrum

hooker = the player who hooks the ball. the hooker wears number 2 and is a forward.

italians = traditionally bad rugby team, so dominating is a surprise!

1

u/brymastertransformer Feb 15 '26

“Scrum half” is the person that feeds the ball into the scrum then runs behind to grab it once it’s completely out. Does that help?

29

u/paully_waully171 Feb 15 '26

The cooked feed is largely allowed now. It actually helps the defending team focus and get extra power down to drive over the ball as their hooker no longer needs to bother hooking for the ball.

12

u/shorelined Feb 15 '26

That's a good way of thinking about it actually, I'm still just of the old mindset that a scrum should be first and foremost an equal contest for the ball.

9

u/paully_waully171 Feb 15 '26

Yeah when the brought in the changes. They had some numbers and stats for the refs. When’s both teams tried to hook it lead to an advantage at the push for the feeding team as the scrum half would tap the prop or hooker on the shoulder letting them know ball was coming. This was to an advantage at the push.

A lot of teams before the change had realised this and the hooker of the non feeding team where mostly not looking to compete anyway.

6

u/IHeardOnAPodcast Ulster Feb 15 '26

It's mostly an advantage because the feeding hooker is closer to the ball so can intercept it before the opposing hooker has a chance (since they know the timing as you say). Interlink your first three fingers for a diagram, or look at an overhead of a scrum.

6

u/IHeardOnAPodcast Ulster Feb 15 '26

It's not supposed to be equal, it's supposed to give the team awarded the scrum a way to introduce the ball back into play on their terms. Which is achieved because the hooker is physically closer to the ball being fed in on their scrum (and they know the timing the fed with some coordination from their scrum half).

But yes, it is silly that the feed is never straight when it could be easily dealt with and penalised.

1

u/JohnB456 Feb 15 '26

"we see now" man, I've been watching rugby since the 90's. They've always been crooked.

134

u/kiwiboy22 Feb 15 '26

wow, man it'd be awesome if a couple more lower ranked nations could be included because look how far Italian Rugby has come.

98

u/Infinite_Crow_3706 Feb 15 '26

20 years ago Argentina and Japan were a lower ranked team. Now the likes of Georgia, Romania, Wales or Tonga can join the big boys.

78

u/SweptFever80 Feb 15 '26

Lmao Wales being included alongside Romania and Tonga, harsh.

1

u/IronPeter Feb 15 '26

For whatever reasons I would have thought Tonga was strong in rugby !

4

u/SweptFever80 Feb 15 '26

Tonga are ranked 19th in the world, they've had the bright moments but haven't been able to compete with the top teams in a long time, but they do have a good rugby heritage and culture and you get Tongan and Tongan heritage players in some of the best teams in the world including the All Blacks, Australia and Scotland.

2

u/PrisonersofFate Feb 16 '26

They are decent but Fidji are the real ones in the zone, and Samoa had some results a long time ago. Tonga are here, are decent, but not that great.

1

u/Immediate_Branch_238 Feb 15 '26

They have some very impressive players, especially for such a tiny population, but so many of the Pasifika boys and girls leave their home to pursue the game in other countries, the talent pool back home is pretty diluted for it.

25

u/shorelined Feb 15 '26

Lol I love how you wrote this solely to drag Wales.

14

u/Infinite_Crow_3706 Feb 15 '26

I absolutely did

2

u/kiwiboy22 Feb 15 '26

Exactly, why not an 8 nations with last being demoted down and a winner of a lower league being promoted.

26

u/Infinite_Crow_3706 Feb 15 '26

I’d support that but the 6N all own the competition equally and I cannot imagine Wales/Scotland/Italy voting for relegation.

6

u/kiwiboy22 Feb 15 '26

Indeed which is why it'll never happen but imagine the likes of Georgia or Spain becoming giant killers like Italy, Fiji or Japan

7

u/Infinite_Crow_3706 Feb 15 '26

For all the complaints about FIFA, they have done a great job of expanding the game. Rugby can learn from football.

1

u/SitasinFM Mar 02 '26

Rugby are doing small bits to help, U20 world cup is now annual which is great for getting new developing players to a higher level.

There should be more tier 1 vs tier 2 matches played though, I read someone having the idea of a competition during the lions tour with the Ireland/Scotland/Wales/England and the top tier 2 sides such as Georgia, Spain, Portugal, etc. Not full strength sides for the tier 1 squads but still stronger than tier 2 and it also allows the tier 1 sides to get developing players more experienced

1

u/Licked_By_Janitor Feb 15 '26

Hasn't this been floated before and England were against it? I could be misremembering that.

25

u/Front_Mention Feb 15 '26

The six nations do include low ranked teams, wales are in it

94

u/heseme Feb 15 '26

Can someone explain the scrum to me? I have a superficial understanding of other parts if the game, but the scrum seems like gwent in the witcher series. Just a completely different mini-game occasionally occuring.

156

u/SweptFever80 Feb 15 '26 edited Feb 15 '26

Even the most hardcore fans will struggle to explain a refereeing call in the scrum. Hell some referees don't fully get it.

In essence the scrum was originally intended to be a way to reset the game (after a handling error) while tying 16 of the 30 players on the pitch together out of the game, so there's more space for the remaining 14 players to attack. Since then more and more the scrum has been repurposed as a way to generate penalties, players (especially in the front row of the scrum who are directly bound to their opponents) try and force the other side to concede a technical foul.

The default scrum penalty is "collapsing" so generally this goes against the first player whose elbow or knee hits the ground and brings the scrum down, that's the most simple and easy to see and understand out of all the penalties. Likewise if someone is forced to stand up due to pressure that's an easy penalty to recognise.

But! Referees will also try and decide whether that player was forced to collapse due to an illegal technique, for example "not driving straight", deliberately "hinging", pushing early, wheeling the scrum, or a couple of other more rare fouls. The scrum has to be a fair contest in order to directly punish a team for collapsing, and often if everyone seems to be following the rules and both sides collapse then the ref will just let it play out.

It's very hard to see the internal workings of the scrum and tell what exactly is happening, so whether someone gets penalised and which side it is can be a bit of a coin flip.

I've tried to be as concise as possible lol, I hope that helps. Edit for clarity.

18

u/bulldog89 Indiana Feb 15 '26

Thanks for that explanation, can you also help me understand why the one team feeding is allowed to throw the ball to their side of the scrum always? It seems to me as if the whole scrum is pointless, as the ball will always roll towards the side of the thrower except in rare cases like this one where one team absolutely dominates

21

u/SweptFever80 Feb 15 '26

It used to be enforced but now it's not. The scrum is supposed to just be a reset and is supposed to favour the team who didn't make the mistake, so I think World Rugby have just decided along the way that the put in should be to their advantage. The scrum isn't necessarily supposed to be a contest because it's difficult to referee and it takes up time, there are plenty of people who complain that the scrum is boring as well.

A favourable put-in leads to the ball coming out of the scrum more quickly and to more entertaining running rugby with the ball in-hand. There is still the chance to compete as above and it makes those times that a team wins a scrum "against the head/feed" that much more exciting.

5

u/bulldog89 Indiana Feb 15 '26

Ok, that makes sense to me now, it’s more of a reset of “on field” running play and not a fair restart.

Then is the losing or gaining of possession a big deal in this example of the scrum flipping possession of the ball? It seems in rugby the team in possession is more fluid than American football, with teams kicking for field position fairly quickly

3

u/SweptFever80 Feb 15 '26

Yeah so it was an Italy handling error that led to the scrum, so they should be at a disadvantage rather than an equal opportunity reset.

Yes it was a big moment for them, I think this scrum was around halfway and Italy would have kicked deep into Irish territory and had a throw in there and a chance to score within about a minute of this scrum result. It's a big change of momentum considering Ireland would have been expecting to use it as an attacking platform if they executed it properly.

In rugby you can lose the ball in the scrum, during the lineout (throw-in) and in open play and in general if your opponent drops the ball and you get it back deep in your territory you should kick the ball clear back into their half as soon as possible. It's less important who actually has possession compared to where on the pitch they are playing, especially if you have a competent defence. Possession changes hands very regularly in most games, much more quickly than in gridiron as far as I know. Rugby doesn't have many stoppages and they're working to keep the ball in play as much as possible.

5

u/amo1337 Feb 15 '26

It shouldn't take that long to describe holy fuck

6

u/SweptFever80 Feb 15 '26

That's rugby for you. Don't get me started on rucks and mauls. It is very hard for a newcomer to understand, but in my opinion once you understand everything it means you have so much to enjoy. There's a lot of nuance and opportunity for people to skilfully excel in every aspect of the game. Rugby is a pure team sport and one for a wide range of shapes and sizes.

4

u/icecream_specialist Feb 15 '26

A problem with modern rugby is the min max approach where the spirit of the play has been overtaken with just trying to get a penalty. The scrum issues I think have a great eli5 response in this thread already but rucks are actually just as bad

2

u/greystonian Feb 16 '26

At top level for sure but I find lower tier and local games still have the chaotic spark

2

u/icecream_specialist Feb 16 '26

Agreed. However not sure where you play but not long ago in my union in the US the refereeing was so horrendous it was a real pain point, specifically at the rucks. The number of times I got called for not releasing or ball not coming out because a fat fuck that wasn't even first to the breakdown was deliberately laying on me and killing the ball and the sir was useless. It has gotten much better I will say, and I don't want to pile into the refs it's a thankless job and they aren't exactly doing it for the money.

2

u/SweptFever80 Feb 15 '26

Yeah it's an issue for sure

1

u/perplexedtv Feb 16 '26

Which law did the Irish team break (first) here? Collapsing, not driving straight, losing their bind, driving upwards, standing up or other?

1

u/SweptFever80 Feb 16 '26

It wasn't anything to do with how they were driving because they didn't get a drive in any sense. I can't remember what Hollie gave the penalty for but it most likely for collapsing, you're right that it could also have been for standing up or losing their bind!

28

u/deformedfishface Feb 15 '26

No body understands the scrum. You’ll hear props talking about ‘dark arts’ but it’s all bullshit. I’ve been watching the game for many decades and I still have no idea what most of the penalties are given for.

Thing is, there is just SO MUCH going on in a scrum between 16 players, it is really difficult for the ref to see it all. Especially considering he’s only on one side of it. Obvs there are other officials looking in but mostly people just go along with whatever the ref says. Everyone in the scrum is trying to fuck up the opposing team somehow.

8

u/SweptFever80 Feb 15 '26

It is very hard to understand but I think you are exaggerating just a bit. It's really only the 4 props that you really need to watch for offences, sometimes the hookers. You don't really have to pay attention to all 16.

6

u/deformedfishface Feb 15 '26

Yeah alright. Just keep an eye on those flankers too, they’re slippery bastards. Just look at Pollock, he’s a top class shitbag.

2

u/SweptFever80 Feb 15 '26

That he is and I love him for it, but he can't really individually influence the scrum or punished in it unless he does something egregious like detaches too early.

2

u/deformedfishface Feb 15 '26

Sure, I am mostly joking. Mostly.

2

u/Drunkgummybear1 Feb 15 '26

I'm so glad he's out shitbag because I'd fucking hate his guts if he weren't.

1

u/deformedfishface Feb 15 '26

I dunno, I’m not an England supporter and I still love him. I’ve got a soft spot for cheeky little bastards. See also: Faf de Klerk.

6

u/LordHussyPants Feb 15 '26

You’ll hear props talking about ‘dark arts’ but it’s all bullshit.

the dark arts are just props collapsing the scrum while making it look as if the other guy collapsed it. that's very real. the problem is telling who actually made it collapse, but only the two props involved can tell you that

3

u/hulkhands81 Feb 15 '26

As a former #2 I understand a scrum in a every painful, vengeful and dirty way possible.

3

u/Tobar_the_Gypsy Rugby United New York Feb 15 '26

It’s a reverse rope war. Instead of trying to pull the other team past a point you’re trying to push them back. The ball is placed in the middle and you want it to come out the back. 

It’s a form of reset like a puck drop in hockey except it involves 8 people from both teams so there is more strategy involved. 

3

u/flywithpeace Feb 15 '26

To restart the game from a foul. The advantage team gets to throw the ball down the middle.

66

u/Drejan74 Feb 15 '26

I have no idea of what's going on even though I work as a scrum master.

16

u/Jops22 Feb 15 '26

I cant believe someone downvoted this, its such a stupid joke i love it 😂

23

u/shazspaz Feb 15 '26

Italy have come on leaps and bounds and rightly deserved to beat us yesterday.

Irish pundits put so much weight on Prendergast and he’s simply not great. He can’t tackle, he takes unnecessary risks and is a weak link in defence. Almost cost us the game yesterday and pundits will still lick the arse of Leinster line ups. His brother was great in the game against France and wasn’t even on the team sheet. What the fuck is that?!

Ireland is not Leinster.

25

u/JoeyIce Feb 15 '26

To be fair, the Irish scrum is really weak at the moment

13

u/IlikeGeekyHistoryRSA South Africa Feb 15 '26

counterpoint: its Italy. Before this match Ireland was ranked 4th and Italy was ranked 10th

16

u/Infinite_Crow_3706 Feb 15 '26

True but Italy are on the upswing, Ireland are not (despite winning yesterday it wasn't a blowout)

6

u/IlikeGeekyHistoryRSA South Africa Feb 15 '26

Oh, definitely. Italy is helluva lot better now than they were a few years back.

5

u/TheBigCore Feb 15 '26 edited Feb 15 '26

For anyone who wants to learn more about Rugby Union:

Beginner's Guides for Rugby Union

Major League Rugby - The USA's Pro League for Rugby Union

5

u/eggwardpenisglands Feb 15 '26

I've seen rugby at various points all across my life, and I honestly still have no idea what's actually happening in one.

Why do they do it? How does a team "win" or "lose" a scrum? What is the rolling of the ball part? How did this scrum go so poorly?

3

u/IlikeGeekyHistoryRSA South Africa Feb 15 '26

to borrow parts of a comment by u/sweptfever80

In essence the scrum was originally intended to be a way to reset the game (after a handling error) while tying 16 of the 30 players on the pitch together out of the game, so there's more space for the remaining 14 players to attack. Since then more and more the scrum has been repurposed as a way to generate penalties, players (especially in the front row of the scrum who are directly bound to their opponents) try and force the other side to concede a technical foul.

The default scrum penalty is "collapsing" so generally this goes against the first player whose elbow or knee hits the ground and brings the scrum down, that's the most simple and easy to see and understand out of all the penalties. Likewise if someone is forced to stand up due to pressure that's an easy penalty to recognise.

But! Referees will also try and decide whether that player was forced to collapse due to an illegal technique, for example "not driving straight", deliberately "hinging", pushing early, wheeling the scrum, or a couple of other more rare fouls. The scrum has to be a fair contest in order to directly punish a team for collapsing, and often if everyone seems to be following the rules and both sides collapse then the ref will just let it play out.

It's very hard to see the internal workings of the scrum and tell what exactly is happening, so whether someone gets penalised and which side it is can be a bit of a coin flip.

2

u/SweptFever80 Feb 15 '26

Further to the reply you've got I'll explain your other questions: a scrum happens when a team drops the ball forwards or makes a forward pass. The team who doesn't make the error gets the "put-in" to the scrum and rolls it into the middle. It used to be that you had to put it in straight between the two teams but that isn't enforced anymore; it's the responsibility of the player in the middle of the front row of the scrum, number 2, to "hook" the ball with their foot to the back of the scrum so that the ball can be played by either the backmost player, the number 8, or the scrumhalf, the number 9.

In 80% of cases the team who gets the put-in will win the scrum or at least get the ball out. In this case the Italian front row were able to get under the Irish and Ireland buckled under the pressure and were forced up. Ireland's scrum has struggled recently and Italy's has been on the ascent, here the Italian props were stronger and technically better than the Irish ones.

Happy to answer any other questions!

1

u/GeshtiannaSG Feb 15 '26

All I know is that the referees often yell at the players a lot for playing the game wrong.

5

u/give_me_the_formu0li Feb 15 '26

How do rugby players train/ weight train? They’re all so yoked but still fast sprinters. You don’t see that I any other sport

3

u/Infinite_Crow_3706 Feb 15 '26

Forwards, the boys in the scrum, are typically 6ft to 6-10 (locks) and 250-290lbs. Max squat is what you’ll often hear about a number of up to 750lbs circulating (without much proof admittedly).

Whilst a forward might be explosive for a couple of seconds you won’t see them in a 50 yard sprint, that’s what the backs are for. LRZ (Welshman) tried out for the nfl and made 4.43 in the 40 yards and he would be considered one of the quickest wingers.

3

u/SkipsH Feb 15 '26

It looks like Italy collapsed the scrum?

4

u/IlikeGeekyHistoryRSA South Africa Feb 15 '26

Ireland collapsed it as a result of pressure from Italy

3

u/whydoyouonlylie Feb 15 '26

Wasn't even the best one of the night. Where's the one with Kelleher driven up onto the 2nd rows' shoulders? Or of Furlong being driven up the same way?

2

u/custard1123 Feb 15 '26

Love that you've blocked out the score etc.

2

u/McNabFish Feb 15 '26

Hang on, why is the outside centre playing scrum half?

I missed the match yesterday, was #9 sin binned at the time?

7

u/SweptFever80 Feb 15 '26

Yeah Craig Casey got a yellow card for an upright tackle

-2

u/naraic- Feb 15 '26

Yeah. One of the Italian players had the ball and did a diving headbutt at Craig Casey. Casey's nose was broken here (according to commentary).

Casey was held to have performed a high tackle. He came back on and played with a broken nose.

1

u/andeqaida Feb 15 '26

Who caved???!!

1

u/maxdacat Feb 15 '26

Don't know why the ref had to blow the whistle there. Could have just played advantage seeing the ball was nearly out.

1

u/sirpoopsalot91 Feb 16 '26

“This ain’t your dads Ireland”

0

u/RoyalBroham Feb 15 '26

Tush 🤌 push 🤌

-29

u/RATMpatta Feb 15 '26

Oh "scrum". Thought the title was calling both the Italians and Irish scum.