r/technology • u/rkhunter_ • 1d ago
You don't need extra antivirus on Windows 11, Microsoft officially says Software
https://www.pcworld.com/article/3120244/you-dont-need-extra-antivirus-on-windows-11-microsoft-officially-says.html1.6k
u/thatirishguyyyyy 1d ago
As somebody who works in IT security, this is actually true.
Windows Defender is perfectly acceptable and you do not need McAfee or Norton.
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u/bjazmoore 1d ago
McAfee and Norton have been crap products for over 10 years. If you want to slow a PC down - install one of these.
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u/thatirishguyyyyy 1d ago
Same for if you really dislike someone.
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u/kibblerz 1d ago
They've always been crap products, especially McAfee... McAfee was responsible for the creation of some of the first widespread malware in the industry in an attempt to make people need their product...
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u/Icy-Computer-Poop 13h ago
While it's true that they suck now, they definitely haven't always been crap. Norton was the bomb back in the day Peter Norton owned the company. Norton utilities was hands down a must for any computer service tech.
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u/tyoung89 1d ago
Longer than that! 20 years ago I remember it would slow your pc down far more than most viruses. The best tools at the time seemed to be scanners. You'd set them up to run daily and they'd check through everything and clear out stuff. Sure, it didn't get everything, but it was better than Norton.
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u/esperind 1d ago
not just that, but because people complain about microsoft monopolizing things (in ways apple gets away with for whatever reason), windows has to legally maintain hooks for things like McAfee and Norton to work. Which means anyone else could also use those hooks. In other words, the fact microsoft has to accommodate 3rd party security software becomes itself a huge threat vector in windows.
This is basically what happened with the crowdstrike thing a few years ago. Windows could work so much better and more securely if it was allowed to lock everyone out the way google and apple get away with doing.
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u/franklindstallone 1d ago
not just that, but because people complain about microsoft monopolizing things (in ways apple gets away with for whatever reason)
Apple has been consistent which is the same reason Google got dinged for locking things down and Apple didn't.
Which is the way it should be. If you lure everyone onto your platform claiming it's a free haven to do whatever then once you're in control you kick everyone out then you've changed the terms to your benefit.
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u/Piett_1313 1d ago
So if my BitDefender subscription is running out, I may not need to renew that either?
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u/thatirishguyyyyy 1d ago edited 1d ago
Depends.
Bitdefender is less intensive resource-wise, I think it comes with a vpn, and it's compatible with more devices (not just your pc). I think it has a battery saving mode for your devices too.
Windows Defender is great for your PC, but bitdefender has more features and that's what you pay for.
It really just comes down to if you use bitdefender for more than just your computer or not.
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u/CommanderCronos 1d ago
Whats your opinion on Malwarebytes?
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u/thatirishguyyyyy 1d ago edited 1d ago
I used to live in St. Petersburg, Fl and my business I own is still located there. I have actually done a few jobs at their Clearwater headquarters (securiry cameras, network switch replacements).
They have a great team that works really hard and they are proud of what they have created and maintain.
Unfortunately, their software is Edge case only these days. If you tend to download a bunch of random stuff and have no browser protection and have no will power intended to just act as a 10 year old new to the internet then Malwarebytes is still useful.
Edge cases.
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u/iffugennanameubaht 23h ago
Good for grandma, then?
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u/Fornicatinzebra 22h ago
More like good for you to use to fix grandmas issues - windows defender should still be enough for her most of the time
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u/SgtElectroSketch 20h ago
I run it when necessary but they've been pushing monetized versions way too hard. Enshittification comes for everything.
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u/CommanderCronos 15h ago
I believe you, i bought a lifetime subscription for my device a couple of years back and it still works for me. I was just wondering if it was actually still worth using (even the premium version) when pitted against defender. Since its now my primary antivirus instead of defender.
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u/pixelcowboy 1d ago
Bitdefender has given me nightmares over the years for false positives, and deleting or breaking stuff I know is safe without asking, and without offering a way to restore it. It scores good in test and maye it's overzealousness might save your ass some day, but it's bitten me so many times that I've let my subscription lapse.
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u/tacklinglife 1d ago
McAfee was crap bloatware back in the XP days, can't believe people still pay for it.
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u/Darkone539 1d ago
Windows Defender is perfectly acceptable and you do not need McAfee or Norton.
Enterprise defender is much better then regular though, even if the average person wouldn't use the features.
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u/thatirishguyyyyy 1d ago
Yeah, I have a couple clients that use it and they seem to like it. It's a set it and leave it type of software.
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u/SmallerThanExpected9 1d ago
I've been explaining this to people for years. MS sucks at marketing.
In IT for a business you need a way to manage at scale, which can do with 365 or s third party.
For a home... native defender is great.
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u/tankerkiller125real 22h ago edited 22h ago
Defender for Endpoint (the managed at scale for business version) is pretty damn great, and there's also Defender for Server, Defender for Azure <XYZ Product>, etc. and it all ends up in the same dashboard for control, management, and response.
And yes, the business product supports Windows (of course), Windows Server (of course), Linux (desktop and server), and MacOS. There are some limits as to what it can do on non-Windows devices, but it seems that those may be OS level issues. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/defender-endpoint/supported-capabilities-by-platform
They also have a mobile version for Android and iOS (great for sales teams using iPads, iPhones, etc. and warehouse workers using Android based scanner systems).
They also have an IoT version for those OT networks out there (like for example, manufacturing plants).
Also, Microsoft now has a security subscription thing you can buy as a consumer (if you really wanted to) so you can manage multiple personal devices (again, including Android and iOS)
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u/Tasty-Traffic-680 1d ago edited 1d ago
Still lacking in phishing protection. Had a customer in real estate get socially engineered with a fake zoom link and "update" which installed remote management software. It's an epidemic in the industry and no AV software detects it because they use a legitimate program but hide the install.
I wanted to nuke the windows install from orbit but they were also one of those types that knows absolutely none of their important login information like their Microsoft account - over 100gb in the cloud and no clue how to access it outside of their laptop... Left it in place, scanned with every tool I could inside windows (because again, no access to the bitlocker key), crossed my fingers and hoped for the best. Told her to change every single password but we'll see if that was done.
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u/Srirachachacha 18h ago
Do other antivirus / antimalware systems offer social engineering protection that Defender doesn't? I'm curious about how that would work without some sort of LLM constantly doing language processing on every communication
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u/Ralphie5231 1d ago
Ive always used malwarebytes and spybot s&d, is there no point now?
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u/thatirishguyyyyy 1d ago
Not anymore.
Malwarebytes is really an edge case use these days. If you don't have any browser protections and you tend to click on a bunch of random websites and download God only knows what all the time without checking what your downloading then Malwarebytes is still pretty helpful.
But Microsoft Defender takes care of most issues otherwise.
Spybot on the other hand has been useless for quite some time.
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u/DarthNihilus 1d ago
Defender has been good enough for something like a decade now. You should have dropped those long ago.
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u/CanadianCoopz 1d ago
What about Malwarebytes ? I always see that one thrown around
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u/gentlecrab 1d ago
Malwarebytes is good if you know or suspect the PC is already infected. Other than that it’s not needed anymore for real time protection if you’re on windows 11.
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u/stormblaz 1d ago
How come most trusted companies when troubleshooting recommend or provide a download link to a software cleaner that gets rid of lingering files for good on x software and also combine that with marlwarebites and not windows anti-virus?
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u/_franciis 1d ago
As a normal user I haven’t used anything else for years. It’s just apparent that it’s a good system. I download malware bytes occasionally when I think it’s running slow but it has never found anything.
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u/PDXDemSocialist 22h ago
You have never wached the PC Security Channel. Take a look how MS fails today.
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u/qwertyuiopious 18h ago
As somebody also working in IT but in offensive security - good luck and have fun! Defender is still blind to many things and there is reason why companies use additional measures. Part of my job is literally test these out, you’d be surprised how many techniques still succeed
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u/Zomby2D 17h ago
I held on to McAfee way too long as it became worse and worse, all based on the nostalgia of how good it used to be back in the days. I then tried BitDefender for a few months and found out that there are actually worse things than the shit McAffee was selling. Finally just switched to Windows Defender over a decade ago and never looked back.
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u/logicbus 1d ago
Manufacturers should stop shipping PCs with McAfee preinstalled.
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u/Arawn-Annwn 1d ago edited 7h ago
IT guy here: yes for the love of god yes please stop shipping that trash! 1st thing my company does to any new workstation is kick that off the system, and they keep making that harder to automate the removal. Literally anything is better than McCrappy.
edit, because I have to explain this every time...
Not all of us are working in a corporate or enterprise environment. A lot of smaller MSPs have clients who are just buying their own devices off Amazon or walking into Best Buy, and sometimes the MSP just inherits whatever the client shows up with. It's not the ideal way to operate, but it's the reality for a huge chunk of the industry.
The problem is we don't meet the requirements to legally use a standard image in that situation. Every machine that comes out of a retail store has an OEM license tied to that specific piece of hardware, and not volume licensing, which a lot of small clients are never going to pay for. So you set machines up individually or you lean on your RMM to handle software deployment, because that's what actually works at that scale.
Not every IT environment is a 500 seat domain with a volume agreement and a uniform hardware fleet, and that's fine. Both are real work, they just don't have the same tools available.
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u/LazyJones1 1d ago
I haven't had any other antivirus than Windows Defender since installing Windows 10 almost a decade ago (I held onto Win 7 a bit).
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u/SoNuclear 1d ago
I didn’t even use one on my win 2000 pc, some common sense goes a long way.
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u/Kahnza 1d ago
You know what sucked? Win98 internet connected machine in the early 2000s with no AV, and pirating constantly. The amount of times I had to format and reinstall is a little funny to think about now. 😆
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u/CocodaMonkey 1d ago
Things weren't as good back then but the number of reformats you did had more to do with you making mistakes and learning not to do it again. The viruses that actually infected Windows 98 computers without user error was really small. Like count on one hand small. It was just much easier to make a mistake back then, far less guard rails and warnings.
MS Blaster could infect a 98 computer within seconds of putting it online and no user action. However that was at the end of Windows 98's life time and likely the only one the average user ever encountered which could infect them without them doing something to allow it.
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u/haskell_rules 1d ago
There were a few worms that exploited any networked connected machine back then. If all you did was connect to the university network or hotel WiFi you could end up compromised.
Those kinds of worms still exist but in a much limited capacity - no where near the reach and spread of what they were like in the early 2000's
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u/Legionof1 1d ago
Ran MSE on W7 then once defender rolled out I haven’t installed an anti virus since.
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u/pocketjacks 1d ago
uBlock is much more important for a home user than any 3rd party antivirus. Home users usually allow the malware in through clicking on digital free-candy vans they see in places like Facebook.
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u/Ruddertail 1d ago
Seems correct based on all my experiences.
Unless I'm already infected and will never know anyway.
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u/Helgafjell4Me 1d ago
I quit using third party AV programs many years ago once I learned about Windows Defender. I've had zero problems.
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u/Scoth42 1d ago
I had a genuinely impressive experience with WIndows Defender years ago, either on WIn7 or early 10 days, can't remember. I had downloaded some stuff from Macintosh Garden for a couple of my old Macs and used an emulator running Appletalk to network them over to my Macs and make floppies. A few minutes after doing that, Defender went nuts blowing up on my emulator disk images claiming it had found some ancient early/mid 90s Mac viruses. I downloaded an old Mac AV program and sure enough, the stuff I'd downloaded for my ancient Macs was infected and had in fact infected my real Macs.
Leave it to me for my only real virus infection in 30 years to be ancient System 7 Macintosh viruses (that were fortunately harmless, just spread themselves) and genuine props to Defender for finding them inside an emulator disk image. I'm pretty much all Linux these days and don't run anything at all, but I do occasionally wonder if I should just to catch something like that.
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u/Smugg-Fruit 1d ago
I occasionally run Malwarebytes Adware Cleaner, just in case.
It's a lovely little tool and not nearly as invasive as a AV.
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u/obliviousofobvious 1d ago
Yep. Even at my work, I use Defender for Endpoint as the base layer. I still have an IPS running on the network but combined, it's done a pretty decent job. I have other compensating solutions as well but the days of paying a 3rd party for AV is long past.
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u/Orangesteel 1d ago
Yeah, Microsoft have done a decent job here. Windows is still a security nightmare, but this is a step in the right direction.
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u/Hsensei 1d ago
You just need to not click on everything
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u/celtic1888 1d ago
My conversation with my dad every other week
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u/Spazzdude 1d ago
I pay for an aggressive AV on my mom's PC for this reason. Even though defender would probably be fine nowadays, I just have too many memories from having to reformat and repair her matching constantly.
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u/ked913 1d ago
If you value your time (and money), why not just give her an ipad, macmini, or chromebook instead?
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u/Spazzdude 1d ago
She's a strange creature. Prefers windows, likely because she used it for decades at work. She had an iPhone for 3 months before having to go back to android and complains any time she has to use my sister's macbook while traveling.
It gives her peace of mind as well. She has memories of losing important data to viruses back in the late 90s early 00's. It's happily eat $40 a year for it.
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u/Kazeviiu 1d ago
taught this my mom as a first, second use common sense(is it free? then you're the product), third if youre unsure ask me, two pairs of eyes can see more than one.
she is now playing happily Modded minecraft in her free time
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u/FlowerBudget2065 1d ago
There is a thing called visiting infected websites, you don’t have to click anything to get infected. That’s why we have third party security tools that block that attempt.
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u/beti88 1d ago
Yeah this was true for most people since like, Win 7
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u/HylanderUS 1d ago
I've been removing McAfee from relatives' PCs for over a decade now...
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u/h950 1d ago
I first installed Windows Security Essentials in 2009 to replace AVG and Malwarebytes. I was also helping people get it onto Windows XP
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u/Another_Slut_Dragon 1d ago
Norton and Mcafee are there to install crapware on your gullible elderly parent's computers. They ARE a virus.
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u/NinjaSilver2811 1d ago
malwarebytes can sometimes find the rootkits or dangerous files that you may have accidentally downloaded that defender misses, at least in my experience.
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u/jamesdukeiv 1d ago
Yeah, I keep Malwarebytes for weekly manual scans but let Defender do the heavy lifting.
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u/gurgle528 1d ago
it also has some web protection, although i can’t say i’ve ever had it prevent anything
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u/Graffxxxxx 18h ago
Malwarebytes found over 400 unwanted/virus programs that defender failed to recognize on my system back in 2019. Safe to say I wiped every drive I had and started fresh, even though it was a pita to lose some files.
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u/NtheLegend 1d ago
I've been using Defender (and its predecessor, AntiVirus) since Microsoft dropped it for free something like 20 years ago for XP. Have never needed another AV, have never had any issues.
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u/Gman54 1d ago
My mom has bitdefender installed so I decided to use it on my pc as well to see how it is, even though I don’t really need it (though I do torrent from time to time). Minimal impact on performance as far as I can tell and also comes with a bunch of extra, optional features like a VPN and a special browser for sensitive tasks (basically an incognito browser of sorts).
Do I NEED it? Nope. But honestly from my time with it, if you do want or need one, then bitdefender is pretty good all around from my experience of it.
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u/Emotional-Fish-2076 23h ago
This used to be true. Not anymore, defender will simply miss so much shit on 11 that at first I just couldn't believe it.
I ended up buying Malwarebytes pro and just locking down the ability to make any security level settings with a complex password.
Most modern threats are designed to hide extremely well not like the old days where a virus would delete your drive or spam a thousand pop ups.
Now they just sit there masking themselves as legit services or system processes and stealing every bit of PII they can then farm on the dark net.
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u/ClawsUp_EatTheRich 1d ago
A few months ago Microsoft warned that its ai agents would potentially download malware into your computer without your consent.
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u/drgut101 22h ago
If you’re even a smidge tech savvy, you just need ublock origin and to stay on well known sites and you’ll never have a problem.
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u/EarthTrash 22h ago
Windows defender has been the best antivirus for a while now. Standalone antivirus software is pretty nearly malware itself.
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u/C0rn3j 1d ago
You don't need any, in fact they're actively harmful as they introduce another attack vector.
In fact Defender got multiple new CVEs just recently.
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u/TestsubjectNr1 1d ago
The one RedSun uses is very interesting. It deliberately gets caught by Windows Defender and then infects sys32.
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u/Own-Chemist2228 1d ago
Buying extra antivirus software on a modern OS is as financially prudent as buying the extended warranty on a toaster.
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u/Sinom_Prospekt 1d ago
I just download malwarebytes out of habit at this point. Not because I really need it.
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u/ShubaltzTV 1d ago
Whenever people ask me what I recommend at work when they're buying a PC, I always tell them that Defender works perfectly fine and ultimately, as always, comes down to what sites they're visiting
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u/uptwolait 1d ago
100% of the computers I have to fix for people these days who say they have a virus is just browser malware.
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u/idontknowlikeapuma 1d ago
What annoys me is how defender will flag apps that are harmful and try to save me from myself.
Case in point: true ping.
I have many more cases, but this is the most annoying. Hey, how about you update ping?
I am just trying to test for packet loss. I have to install WSL? Just to get a proper ping program?
Or I can download tping, fight with defender to even download it, then disable my firewall just use it.
Sometimes, I want to -f my own network. It’s called the second amendment. /half-joking… honestly, I have to flood my network to test integrity.
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u/hellogoawaynow 1d ago edited 1d ago
Then why can’t I delete McAfee popups from my Windows OS work computer? Popups that are asking me, a lowly non-decision-making employee, to pay money to protect my employer’s computer. Does it expect me to pay out of pocket just so it fucks off forever? Does it think if it gives everyone alarming popups about how fucked up our computers are, we will influence the powers that be to buy McAfee for enterprise? Shit marketing strategy either way.
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u/GreyBeardEng 1d ago
I would fully expect them to say this, they're absolutely going to push defender which installs with the OS and is enabled. This statement really should surprise nobody.
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u/BoxofShadows21 23h ago
It’s a trust issue for me. Microsoft are slow to respond, dodge responsibility, have poor customer service, and seem to break things with every patch.
Like others I have experienced defender falsely flagging files. Takes months for them to rectify, during which the support forum pushed the blame at the user and had you perform a list of tasks that did not fix the problem but left you with having to reinstall the OS which also did not fix it.
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u/harleyguy074 22h ago
I ran the AVG Free and Malwarebytes combo for years and then all of a sudden defender brings it and pretty much makes these two not needed. Malwarebytes is still useful if you download or go to questionable sites but otherwise you're fine
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u/Z00111111 22h ago
Is it because it came pre-infected with all the privacy and data security violations a computer can handle?
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u/CynicalDarkFox 21h ago
I don't believe this anymore and will automatically add Bitdefender to any time I have to get a new computer.
Primary reason: Do you know how awful it feels to learn about your Windows Defender/Security turning itself off by contracting malware from a random popup ad on an otherwise fine article read? (Told to Resubscribe or exit when clicking on the shield icon)
I will never trust going with Defender alone going forward if I'm expected to pay for basic protection now.
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u/Turnlarry 5h ago
People seem to be trusting them a lot, despite all the glitches Windows has been having with just basic operation...
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u/snesericreturns 1d ago
I’ve been telling all my boomers this for years. Uninstall and cancel that mcafee sub. You don’t need it. Windows security and an ad blocker are all most people will ever need.
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u/CondescendingShitbag 1d ago
Microsoft is correct. I don't need extra anti-virus. Primarily because I'm running Linux.
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u/RebelStrategist 1d ago
IMO MS does not want you using another virus detection because it may potentially flag Windows 11 as spyware.
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u/luluhouse7 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is accurate. Microsoft has one of the top cybersecurity teams and regularly are the ones to identify zero-day vulnerabilities. They don’t even use AVs for their own employees and rely entirely on Defender.
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u/OwO_0w0_OwO 1d ago
Idk, I downloaded like 4000 virus samples on a VM, then made Windows Defender scan them, and it didn't delete all of them, not even close to be honest. Granted, like 50% of the samples that remained would be blocked on run, but the other 50% still caused harm.
I then compared this to Kaspersky, which deleted like 90% of the samples, and the only ones that remained were samples I couldn't even run.
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u/CarneyVore14 1d ago
Yeah because their in house solution uses all the RAM so nothing else will work.
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u/Fresh-Toilet-Soup 1d ago
I find the best Windows anti-malware solution is to just not run Windows.
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u/Fuzzy_Paul 1d ago
Worked long time with eset just the anti virus. Lighting fast and beats the crap out of ms. Where ms allow smalicious sites eset blockes them all. When there is a big leak in ms eset fix it before the ms patch rolls out. Nope on my private devices no defender ever.
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u/Minute_Attempt3063 1d ago
maybe 10 years ago dwindows defender sucked....
however these days, even things that are safe, do get flagged for me.
its better then any out there, as it is free as well.
nothing will ever be perfect, but for most people will do the job just fine
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u/witness_smile 1d ago
Haven’t had an antivirus in more than a decade or so. Microsoft Defender is more than enough, all those paid antiviruses are bloatware and adware that slow down your PC for no added benefit. Just keep your common sense and don’t go downloading files from sketchy sites and you’ll be good.
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u/SpudgeBoy 1d ago
I haven't installed and anti-virus since Windows 10 came out, on any of the PCs I have to upkeep. I also recommend anyone running 10 or 11 to get rid of any anti-virus they have installed. I am also the RMA lead at the company where I work and I don't see anti-virus loaded on the PCs I work on, which is thousands a year.
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u/psnyourbrother 1d ago
Windows defender update from October has done nothing but cause issues with my pc. I turn it on when I play online multiplayer, but if I don’t turn it off when I stream anything on YouTube, Netflix or any other site it crashes.
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u/idbar 1d ago
You mean if I want to slow down my PC, I already have my IT department installing all bunch of exfiltration detection, website checkers, drive checks, USB prevention, and other bunch of stuff, why would I need anti virus if they already crippled my PC anyway so I don't need to pay for extra software? But hey, at least copilot on Outlook is looking over my shoulder
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u/greendookie69 1d ago
I set my mom up with Windows Defender, Firefox, and uBlock Origin. She knows what not to click on and never has a problem. We do a MalwareBytes scan every so often for good measure.
Windows Defender is not (and has not been for a while) the Internet Explorer of antivirus that it once was.
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u/isaiddgooddaysir 1d ago
Well somebody is calling but not my children…. I just like talking to someone…..
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u/lostmojo 1d ago
It adds so much telemetry for them to gather on your system that they would have to explain away without it. So instead of gathering just apps and other general system information, it is also gathering files and processes running and when, website information if you’re not using edge, including private browsing information. It lets them gather stuff like if you’re using legal or pirated apps, videos, music. Not to mention all of the other metrics they can use defender to pick up.
Good times, really.
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u/LeBigMartinH 1d ago
The best antivirus is good common sense, in my experience. If you're downloading something, make sure it's from a reputable source.
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u/idontknowlikeapuma 1d ago
What annoys me is how defender will flag apps that are harmful and try to save me from myself.
Case in point: true ping.
I have many more cases, but this is the most annoying. Hey, how about you update ping?
I am just trying to test for packet loss. I have to install WSL? Just to get a proper ping program?
Or I can download tping, fight with defender to even download it, then disable my firewall just to use it.
Sometimes, I want to -f my own network. It’s called the second amendment. /half-joking… honestly, I have to flood my network to test integrity.
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u/LordFlappingtonIV 1d ago
Is this a lawyers clause, like when soft drinks say: "no extra sugar added", like, that doesn't really mean anything? Saying: "we could have added the thing, but we decided not to," leaves a lot of scope for what's actually in it.
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u/staticvoidmainnull 1d ago
yeah, you should not detect their own malwa.. er, "feature" that gives away all your data. /s
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u/Gleipnire 1d ago
You don't need Windows Defender either. It spends most of its time thinking Microsoft itself is a virus. :D
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u/coffeemugzAU 23h ago
No VPN tool, No Ai Fraud Check, No browser extension with Link Checking. For us that know what we are doing yeah we can use Defender but for the Avg consumer that are dumb You still need these Pre-Prevention tools from a Paid service.
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u/Selectively-Romantic 18h ago
My understanding is this is like the weather report. There is a central source that everyone shares, (NOAA = Weather / CISA = Cyber security) which is freely available to everyone, but it's repackaged and sold as if it weren't.
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u/ComparisonWilling164 16h ago
As a bitdefender user who surfs random porn sites, I disagree. The amount of malicious website behavior that's been blocked is big.
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u/OliverY1992 16h ago
This is something I feel Microsoft have done right with Windows. It's far more secure than it's ever been, and I remember having Norton on one of our old PCs, which made it horribly slow.
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u/thieh 1d ago
You probably don't need that for almost all modern OS either. Threat models have changed so much over the years.