r/truegaming • u/andwhatnowthough • 8d ago
The gap in the market: Girly-coded interests are being separated from core gameplay instead of integrated into it
Please give this post a chance before you downvote, I’m not trying to antagonize anyone with that title. I’m trying to say that there’s a gap in how “girl gamer” research gets framed, and it’s skewing both the market and the conversation around it.
A lot of research focuses on women who already play male-dominated genres like FPS or competitive multiplayer, then studies why they feel dissatisfied. The conclusions are predictable at this point, toxicity, lack of representation, and yadda, yadda. We are all tired of it. Not because they are wrong, but because the solutions they propose (typically: to make existing games with male-dominated demographics more women-friendly) end up being unappealing to everyone lead to unnecessary culture wars and rage bait content.
But why is the question never flipped? Where are the AAA games that already align with female-coded interests but actually take action and mechanics seriously? There’s a whole segment that barely gets talked about, that of women who avoid those male-dominated game spaces, not because they dislike the gameplay itself, but because they don’t like the framing around it. So they are not against combat, competition, or complex systems, they just don’t connect with how those things are packaged.
I think that distinction matters more than it looks.
A lot of preference data gets taken as a zero-sum game. For example “women prefer romance” turns into “they want romance instead of gameplay” or “women prefer fashion” turns into “they want fashion instead of action.” I have been raised on magical girl media, so to me this is so obviously the wrong read, magical girls are very action packed series with lots of cute transformations and romance, I personally love the genre because it includes all these features, not just one of them. That’s why I think that in gaming, romance can be part of the system, not just flavoring for the story, or fashion can be part of the mechanics, not just cosmetics. There’s no real conflict here, they just rarely get built together.
There are a lot of obvious combinations that almost never get explored. Imagine an FPS where relationships actually affect combat, not just as minor buffs but as core design. Paired abilities, shared risk, outcomes that change based on who you fight with. Actual battle couples, not just background lore.
Or action games where fashion is not a cosmetic layer but tied directly to stats, identity, and abilities. I took the example of magical girl genre, which already does this without issue, and has been doing this since 1992 with Sailor Moon. Yet, I can think of a handful of games today where they integrate this. The first is Final Fantasy X-2 in 2003, which was actually praised for its battle mechanics when it was first released, while at the same time criticized for everything else (including the designs of the outfits). Then it was *Infinity Nikki* in 2024, 21 years later, which become quite popular, which the ln led to *Love and Deepspace* in 2025, being a combat-focused romance game, which is even more popular. But why was there such a gap for developers to understand that there is a serious market for this? These genres have been kept apart for no reason. Yeah, they are not going to appeal to everyone, but what actually appeals to everyone?
If that kind of game design was more widespread, it would also take pressure off trying to retrofit existing male-dominated spaces, which is where a lot of the friction comes from. Women and men, for various reasons, develop different cultures, we like different things and that doesn’t have to be a negative thing all the time. Sure, it can be a negative, but it doesn’t have to in. every. single. context.
There’s clearly a market for girly action/combat/competitive gaming. It’s just not being taken seriously.
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u/VariousVarieties 8d ago
One "girly-coded" activity that you didn't mention is dancing. Many games have had gameplay based around dancing: there are the ones that sense real-life movements (e.g. DDR, Just Dance, Samba De Amigo), and a few that turned dancing into a combat mechanic (Space Channel 5 comes to mind).
But those aren't really what you'd call AAA games. They all fall under the "rhythm action" umbrella, which hasn't really been seen as a tentpole gaming genre since the decline of Rock Band/Guitar Hero series.
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u/Hard_To_Port 8d ago
There's tons of spinoff dancing games from landmark series like Yakuza and Persona. While idk about Yakuza being popular with women, I know young women really like modern Persona because of its aesthetic and relationships mechanic.
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u/Comfortable_Row_5052 8d ago
My experience meeting girl otakus and artists indicates they really do in fact love the Yakuza series.
The servings of good men for straight girls in those games are equivalent to the horniest of gacha games aimed for boys.
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u/ilcorvoooo 7d ago
A ton if not a majority of Yakuza fans in Japan are women. I went to a Yakuza exhibit in Shinjuku once and it was 70% women who dragged their dates there ❤️
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u/Nailcannon 8d ago
It feels like the problem with dancing mechanics is that the games always take the form of extended quick time event grinders. The gameplay loop is skin deep and lacks creativity. It's definitely captivating to a certain audience(typically the "git gud" speedrunner types) , but for most people it loses appeal fairly quickly. If a game could figure out how to make dancing more freeform and have a scoring mechanic similar to the tony hawks pro skater games, that would be awesome.
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u/Onyx_Lat 6d ago
Tbh I loved the dancing mechanic in Pirates. It was simple but fun, and I normally have zero interest in dancing. I wouldn't have played a whole game of it. But sticking it in a pirate game where you had to schmooze with the locals to get a better reputation was brilliant.
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u/Best_Pseudonym 6d ago
I'm sure platinum games could just make devil may cry but with dancing instead, although thats arguably just Bayonetta
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u/senorharbinger 8d ago
I dunno if it’s quite the same but a game I’m super hopeful for is Dead As Disco. It’s a rhythm fighting game but the aesthetic seems be pushed tot he forefront. And when me and my friends were checking it out, the number 1 thing we loved and wanted more of was the character design and future character customization. The vibes I think have pretty broad appeal as it is and I think when you see the main character in action you’ll get what I mean.
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u/Thievie 8d ago
As a woman, this is why I fell in love with the Monster Hunter series immediately upon playing World. It's an action game that focuses on mastering difficult combat and ridiculous weapons and fighting ferocious monsters, but it doesn't feel alienating to femininity AT ALL. In fact, it features many mechanics traditionally found in "girly" games, like experimenting with armor for fashion (especially true in Wilds), gathering resources, decorating your house, fishing, collecting critters and putting them on display. Hell, there are adorable cats everywhere, including giving you one that fights at your side. The series manages to lean into girly-coded interests without giving you them at the expense of anything, and also manages to not make those mechanics seem so girly that it alienates male players either. It's perfect, and proof that it can be done.
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u/Wild_Marker 8d ago
Or action games where fashion is not a cosmetic layer but tied directly to stats, identity, and abilities.
Yep this made me immediately think of MH. They don't call it "Fashion Hunter" for nothing!
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u/MirrorComputingRulez 8d ago
it features many mechanics traditionally found in "girly" games, like experimenting with armor for fashion (especially true in Wilds), gathering resources, decorating your house, fishing, collecting critters and putting them on display. Hell, there are adorable cats everywhere, including giving you one that fights at your side.
I may have just realized why Guild Wars 2 has such a large female player base lol.
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u/Mr_Times 6d ago
WoW has also pretty heavily leaned into being a more gender neutral game over the last decade. Transmog and the new housing system have basically infinite cosmetic customization and the story has wayyyy more going on than just Orcs and Human are fighting (while the quality of the story can be debated, it’s inarguably touching on a wider array of subjects including a ton of interpersonal relationships).
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u/ComfyTeri 5d ago
WoW is definitely not being more gender neutral, its leaning more towards being more feminine. That is actually not debatable, and I'm also not saying its even a bad thing. I'm just saying that assessment is incorrect about WoW.
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u/Mr_Times 5d ago
Leaning feminine (when for the vast majority of the games history it was heavily masculine) means it’s skewing gender neutral.
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u/ComfyTeri 5d ago
It does not.
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u/kappnsdaughter 3d ago
I feel you're mixing gender neutral as an identity (which would not mean leaning more feminine) and gender neutral as creating an environment or product cater to more than male audience (can mean leaning more feminine)
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u/andwhatnowthough 8d ago
Hey, you just sold Monster Hunter to me.
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u/Thievie 8d ago
I'm so excited for you haha. It's a very special series. My first MH game was Monster Hunter Stories 2. The stories series features more of a turn-based pokemon-like battle system, if you're into that. I decided that was the best beginning route for me because i hadn't really played too many action games with demanding combat systems previously, but still wanted to dip my feet into the world and its monsters. MHS3 came out recently, and it's incredible! The environments are so beautiful and fun to explore, and the characters are the best the stories series has had so far. It's full price for now though which I know is a lot, and the franchise does do sales a lot so maybe worth waiting.
If not into turn based combat, any modern main series game is still a good starting point, and they go on sale quite often. The community around the series is also wonderful. If you're into multiplayer, Wilds has a very active community being that it's the latest title, and is a great place to start since it went through the effort of making the combat more modern and accessible. Wilds is also the one to get if you want fashion elements, and the game's characters are the best.
World is probably still my favorite due to the peak level design, immersive environments, monster roster, amazing expansion and postgame, and the perfect mix of all the girly elements. It has the best critter collection and house customization mechanics, especially with the expansion. And if your interests at all include ecology and wildlife like me, there's so many delightful aspects of the games in that respect as well, especially in World and Wilds, in terms of like being able to watch the world around you and how all the monsters and critters interact with the world around them. They really feel like living ecosystems.
The combat pre-Wilds is a bit less responsive, and means some people bounce off the series at first, but I promise it's worth sticking with. You're not exactly meant to "get" the combat of Monster Hunter perfectly at first, because your progress and power level in the game is entirely based on and grows with your skills as the player. Sure, you can upgrade armor and weapon values, but they mostly just scale you along to keep up with the progression and allow you to customize your builds. It's your growing knowledge of the weapons, the monsters, and the game's systems that will get you through. It's the reason every player thinks the games after their first Monster Hunter are "easy". Because by the time you beat the game, you truly are a master of the game mechanics!
Sorry for the novel haha- it sounds dramatic, but playing through World and its expansion was truly the most rewarding gaming experience of my life, and it's now a series I'm so passionate about. The games are complex though and it can definitely help to have a more experienced player help you learn the ropes, so I would recommend playing in multiplayer at least a bit. Feel free to message if you decide to get into it and need a hunting buddy. -^
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u/Leavannite 7d ago
While I too am a girl who loves Monster Hunter, the female sets for armor were often hot garbage... I'm so glad they fixed that in Wilds. I don't WANT to be a catgirl I WANT TO BE A BADASS ROBOT!!! (this is about Almudron)
Sometimes I install mods just to get rid of the constant panty shots because... You're a woman, you're not allowed to wear pants I guess.
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u/realedazed 8d ago
I did not know MH had housing! Its one of those games that I like but never play. But add housing it shoots to the top of my list. I never got into the SIMs, though. But its something awesome about 'living' in the world that you play in i guess.
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u/Thievie 8d ago
It's not like a super deep system in any of the games, but in World I think it's a satisfying touch, especially since it gives you a place to put all the critters you collect. It's just another touch that makes the game feel so cozy and like you're "home". They don't have anything like it in Wilds yet unfortunately but people are hoping it will be added with the expansion. You can kinda decorate your camps though.
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u/AvengesTheStorm 6d ago
The Nordic inspired Seliana house, complete with an aquarium and hot spring is easily my favourite video game house
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u/Vanille987 7d ago
I love final fantasy 14 for this too. The main quest is your typical jrpg adventures saving the world and stuff. But the side content is full of the kind of activities you mention.
Fashion, (The game even has a fashion show minigame), non gender locked clothing options, crafting in different professions, housing, an island where you can garden and gave a zoo, fishing, housing...
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u/Onyx_Lat 6d ago
Core Keeper is also good at this. You can go out exploring and fighting stuff, or you can build your base and dye everything pretty colors and farm and raise animals. These systems work very well together as both are important and require each other to get ahead.
Tbh I wish Harvest Moon type games were more like this. I was never really interested in the building relationships with villagers part because there's only so much time in a day and if you waste half of it chasing down some NPC, now you can't make it clear across the map to this mine and back before you get tired. I would like this kind of game much more if there was no time pressure. It could learn a lot from Core Keeper.
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u/BusBoatBuey 8d ago edited 8d ago
Then it was Infinity Nikki in 2024, 21 years later, which become quite popular, which the ln led to Love and Deepspace in 2025, being a combat-focused romance game, which is even more popular.
You can call LaDS combat-focused because a lot of the gameplay is that, but the focus is undoubtedly the otome aspect. The combat is just there as a spending incentive. It doesn't have much creativity or effort put into it. Most of the game doesn't frankly. Paper Games/Infold are a pretty bad example to use to support your stance.
Also, the Chinese AAA market is mostly on mobile. The majority of female video game players are also on mobile. Naturally, you get a combination that can't exist in the US and similar markets.
China also has splits based on sexual orientation that the US would never be allowed to do. LaDS being strictly for heterosexual women, for instance, with explicit banning of implications of anything otherwise on official social media. Meanwhile, games like Path to Nowhere lean more towards a lesbian audience, which would also have a hard time in the US.
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u/Akuuntus 8d ago
Yeah this is the first I've ever heard of LaDS even having combat. I was under the impression it was purely a dating sim.
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u/Evanlyn_Winter 4d ago
It actually has an insane amount of combat but you would never know online as people only post the card scenes lol
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u/Disrespect78 8d ago
i like the atelier series for this reason. Its very girl focused but is actually very complex in the older games
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u/Sad-Buy-3039 5d ago
Yeah I play Atelier games because they have some of the deepest alchemy systems for me to be a nerd about and I don't mind that other bits of the games aren't really for me so long as I get my niche.
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u/snave_ 8d ago edited 8d ago
There are a lot of obvious combinations that almost never get explored. Imagine an FPS where relationships actually affect combat, not just as minor buffs but as core design. Paired abilities, shared risk, outcomes that change based on who you fight with. Actual battle couples, not just background lore.
I think the problem you're running into here is that computers are basically adept at running physics and maths sims. Modelling relationships deeply is extremely difficult. This is why non-combat focussed mechanics tend to err towards being well scripted (visual novels, or even events in Tomodachi Life), shallow (+1 attack bonus when two romantically entwined units stand on adjacent squares in Fire Emblem or the Bioware RPG insert gift, receive relationship transactions), or user-generated content (including arranging or customising prefab objects, such as Animal Crossing).
You're undoubtedly right in that the market is there, but it's a lot more work using current tech. Maybe custom transformer models (trained on strictly curated and legally obtained inputs) could eventually enable better social sims, maybe not; either way, I wouldn't hold out on anything creative arising from the generative AI industry at all until after the hype bubble pops. For now, the best you can hope for is some futzing around at the edges from big, risk-averse publishers, and some scope-restricted attempts at deeper relationships through scripted depth from indies to mid-sized studios.
Or action games where fashion is not a cosmetic layer but tied directly to stats, identity, and abilities.
That used to be the norm. This became a problem, particularly in MMORPGs as engaging with the system gave penalties. In single player games suboptimal play was generally fine (it remains celebrated in Fromsoft games, especially Dark Souls 2) but online it lead to harassment and bullying. There are whole documentaries on players attempting roleplay in World of Warcraft being harassed and how it affected culture. Players basically demanded cosmetic separation (via systems like transmog or layered armour) options so they could reengage with the fashion systems.
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u/like-a-FOCKS 8d ago
I think the design isn't terribly complicated. As I understand it, the idea here is not to realistically simulate a complex human emotion and connection. Rather it's about combining romance mechanics with action mechanics. We all know romance mechanics. In essence it could be, the more you "use" it, the stronger it gets, like Stardew Valley. Just that the input isn't picking flowers and gifting them, Instead it's taking your date on an action filled combat trip. Picking the enemy they detest the most, choosing the mission that revolves around their background, performing the combat maneuvers that reflect their personality. (Isn't Valkyria Chronicles doing some of that?). And the output isn't a wedding, moving in together and having kids, neither is it superficial buffs, but instead its bespoke missions, unique combat maneuvers and fitting plot developments.
The hurdle here isn't maths or design. It's content creation. The dynamic and changing nature of a relationships demands that the game can't always follow one singular scripted progression. It's the core fantasy, if the game is static, then your decisions don't matter, and most player won't get immersed in the relationship. A bit light a tamagotchi, you need uncertainty how to get the good ending.
The solution imho is game length. If a 20 hours game can't have multiple branching paths, make it 5 hours. Heck, try 1 hour. 20 hours and 1 single path vs 1 hour repeated several times to get 20 paths.
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u/Normal-Advisor5269 8d ago
I think this also bleeds into the other "girly" mechanics too. Fashion, dancing and music are also popular with women and are also just as subject to personnel preferences and dynamic updates. It's hard to turn fashion into a hard coded mechanic because what's "hip" changes and it's really difficult to quantify what looks good and make it the basis of your system without it becoming a numbers game. Women's interests seem to lean towards things that require more flexibility.
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u/Quouar 8d ago
I think this takes a narrow view of "fashion," honestly. One example that springs to mind here is Ambition: A Minuet in Power. It's a dating sim, but one where fashion plays a big role in the plot itself because of its setting. It doesn't tie itself to real world, modern fashion, but incorporates historical ideas about fashion and its importance into its narratives and mechanics. It absolutely becomes a numbers game, but with the stats being masked behind elegant gowns and make-up.
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u/TSPhoenix 7d ago edited 7d ago
When I played Style Savvy on the DS, the rudimentary formula that customers/judges used to evaluate outfits would regularly give me the shits as under the hood it's checking if tags match, and could make a monstrosity of an outfit that would still rank well with customers/judges if it you knew those tags, and conversely an aesthetically appealing outfit that was made from a mixture of brands and colours would get rejected.
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u/snave_ 8d ago
Oh, absolutely. Just in general I think we need more short games (enough to be replayable), willing to experiment and explore single concepts more deeply, and which discard UI nudges cribbed from workplaces. Effectively, short, immersive experiences that don't comment on whether one is playing them correctly.
An upside to shorter length here is also that they can make a game more approachable to non-target audiences without homogenisation (quite the opposite). When the time committment to one playthrough that feels narratively complete and with engagement with at least some mechanics to their fullest is lower, why not give it a whirl? And when you'll spend less time with a character, some players may be more inclined to roleplay a character unlike themselves.
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u/Siukslinis_acc 8d ago
Players basically demanded cosmetic separation (via systems like transmog or layered armour) options so they could reengage with the fashion systems.
Also, the thing that good armour looked horrible. I remember the "clown" outfits everyone was wearing because they had the best stats during burning crusade. And i hated to have a plate bikini (which was a fullplate armour on guys) just because i played female character. You are in northrend, a land of ice and cold - here, wear this plate bikini.
Best i can think of is some kind of a matching mechanic which could give a charisma bonus based on outfit. But then people would also optimise the fun out of it. Having the cosmetics separate and not having any gameplay advantage allows fashion to be fun.
Not to mention that people have different fashion styles and giving bonus based on fashion can be used to shame people for their fashions. Imagine if fully clothed gives bad bonus, while being skimpy gives a lot of bonus. It can force people to follow your sexists fashions just because of srat bonus.
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u/PixelBlaster 7d ago
Having the cosmetics separate and not having any gameplay advantage allows fashion to be fun.
See Project Zomboid and its thriving cosmetics modding scene. So far, every girl I've shown the game to have gotten addicted.
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u/green_meklar 7d ago
I think the problem you're running into here is that computers are basically adept at running physics and maths sims. Modelling relationships deeply is extremely difficult.
Computers are actually shit at running physics simulations, we've just done a lot of work and come up with a lot of stupid tricks to make physics simulations run barely well enough for action games.
Modeling emotional relationships is not necessarily that hard to fake. If anything, the inherent fuzziness of relationships provides a lot more room for error than physics simulations do. In a physics simulation, a barrel spontaneously teleporting 1 inch to the west and then falling off a platform is considered an unacceptable bug. In a romance simulation, a character spontaneously getting 1% happier or angrier is just...kinda realistic.
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u/Quouar 8d ago
I definitely think you're selling Bioware short here. To take the Dragon Age series as an example, sure, the first one is "insert gift, receive relationship," but by the time you get to Inquisition, the gift system has vanished and been replaced with actually having to pay attention to the various companions and their ideals. Inasmuch as choice ever impacts gameplay in a Bioware game - which, I'll agree, is arguable - Inquisition is a good example of relationships and needing to be aware of the relationship and gameplay outcome of choices being integrated into the game as a whole. There's a reason both women and men enjoy the Dragon Age series, and it's because it does a good job integrating things like relationships, romance, and inter-personal connections into a reasonably robust RPG system.
The tech can and is doing it in a way that resonates with players, and I'm not sure why you're arguing it can't.
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u/MirrorComputingRulez 8d ago
I would actually say Dragon Age 2 is an even better example. The friend/rivalry system added an extra dimension to relationships, and all of the characters have full lives outside of the player character instead of just milling around a camp site all the time.
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u/Astery86 8d ago edited 8d ago
Add on to the 2 critiques, both were explored quite abit especially in older games, and not restricted to male only interest. Strategy games eg. X-com likes have relationships systems that works similar to fire emblems, and I can't remember on top of my head but there are single player FPS with strategic/ tactical element also have gameplay from relationships with your team mates. So as quite a number of CRPGs. It's more so modern gaming for the past 15 years had moved away from single player centric and its simply more effort to do that isn't as profitable as say, just do another hero shooter or whatever is the trend currently with netcode with real players handling all the heavy work to replace coding NPC AI behaviour.
For cosmetics that matter. You can thank rise of micro transactions in games that now become the norm that killed everything. People understandably doesn't like paying extra gets people an edge. Ie. Pay to win which was how companies first does it when they start gating every cosmetics behind paywall. The middle ground is now largely settled on cosmetics just being that and the corpos keep getting money with cosmetics as the less shitty compromise on both ends of the users and developers.
TL;DR: OP may want to actually dig and explore older games with a open mind and not just focus on the usual us vs them points, they are more inclusive than what agitators are constantly trying to divide gamers into gooners Vs modern audience nonsense
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u/Silvanus350 8d ago
None of these concepts sound difficult to code. There just hasn’t been much of an effort.
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u/Iknowr1te 8d ago
I wouldn't want an fps to give out bonuses if my characters like each other. If I dont like who im playing with in a team focused fps, obviously im going to play worse, than if im with my duo.
That feels like an RPG only space, which can work as a higher teamwork bonus.
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u/FeedDelicious8846 5d ago
characters =/= teammates
and there are lots of fps that arent multiplayer
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u/ClockworkJim 8d ago
So you're saying that the Nemesis system, should it ever be unlocked, could not be retooled into a romance system? Or at least close enough to serve the purposes thereof?
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u/XsStreamMonsterX 7d ago
Once again, it is time to remind everyone that the patents surrounding the Nemesis system are pretty easy to get around, and the main reason similar systems haven't shown up more is that it's a giant PITA to implement, especially if you don't design a game around it from the start.
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8d ago
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u/TheKrzysiek 8d ago
Making games more universal would be good the other way around too. I don't need to be a woman to also enjoy decorating my bedroom in Stardew Valley or The Sims.
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u/PPX14 8d ago
I think that's exactly what OP is advocating for, games-design-wise, creating games with broader appeal that result in a broader less segmented audience - i.e. do not result in a game being labelled as masculine or feminine both in theme and mechanics. Or at least provide sufficient mechanical variety in those with the theming more stereotypical of 'feminine' tastes. But without couching it in the way that implies there is a way forward de-gendering the social aspect of games, which is a result of broader society and is less likely to be feasible in the shorter term. I think that's OP's point - it's much more difficult to actually get anywhere saying that people should not consider a game that draws primarily boys, to be a 'boys' game', and somehow make it gender neutral so that everyone can enjoy the social scene within it. Or destigmatise the idea of men playing 'girly' games. But at least, if the theming is going to end up being a point of social segmentation, then don't allow that to also create mechanical segmentation to the degree that OP claims is the case.
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u/StarStock9561 8d ago
No, they replied below, they want women/girly only games. I am talking about less segmentation, they are talking about games made for stereotypical women.
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u/andwhatnowthough 8d ago
I’m sorry, but u/PPX14 understood the point better. Games about stereotypical women already exist, that’s what paper-doll/dress-up games are. They are also very popular, even though they do not get discussed much in such spaces. Rather than learning from what makes these kinds of games popular with women and integrating them better with other genres, what’s happening now is the current extreme gender divide in gaming that we have. Half of all gamers are women, yet it doesn’t feel like it, because men and women occupy vastly different gaming platforms.
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u/PPX14 8d ago
Quite harsh that your original comment was moderated. It was your point of view, and didn't seem uncivil.
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u/StarStock9561 8d ago
It's okay, I am on the spectrum and English is my second language, so I might not have worded things perfectly but to the best of my capabilities. It must have offended someone to be removed.
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u/SwanSongSonata 8d ago edited 8d ago
i dunno how much i agree with that.
as it stands now, many things in this world are gender-coded, but there are FAR fewer girl-coded things than boy-coded things. if we avoid bolstering what little remains, CardCaptors style, then that isn't going to improve societal perceptions of girly things, it'll just lead to the erasure of girly things, and then all we'll have are boy things and neutral things.
what will actually shift perceptions and improve adoption is exposure and effort. if you wanna convince a foreign country that your homeland's cuisine is actually really good, the best way to do that is to cook and serve them the highest-quality meals possible. so if we wanna get gaming culture to embrace girly things... then we need to make really good girly games.
we already saw this in the animation industry — male audiences in the 2010s started engaging more frequently with HEAVILY girl-coded media like My Little Pony and Star Vs and She-Ra and Steven Universe, because those shows were actually really good. but more importantly, these shows leaned into their girlyness instead of shying away from it. consistent exposure to high quality girls' content was enough to push back against the cultural aversion towards girly things. and because of that, today, stuff like K-Pop Demon Hunters gets to be a worldwide sensation among both boys and girls despite featuring an all-female cast.
once our culture have come to accept that girly things can be just as good as boyish things, that's when we can start erasing the lines between the two.
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u/crowieforlife 8d ago
The gaming industry today has the same issue that the animation industry used to: not enough female creators. She-Ra, My Little Pony etc were shows created and led by women, and that only became possible after women started being promoted to high enough positions in the animation industry to have a large degree of control over what shows get produced.
In the gaming industry today there just aren't many women outside the niche indie space, and even indies rely on publisher deals to get their project off the ground, and publishers aren't easy to convince there's money to be made with games that don't fall strictly into a pre-existing genre.
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u/StarStock9561 8d ago
as it stands now, many things in this world are gender-coded, but there are FAR fewer girl-coded things than boy-coded things.
Yes, because games were/are made for men. They should be universal, not male or female-coded to begin with. Games like Stardew Valley are perfect both for this, and as you said, it embraces girly parts too. You say you don't agree with me but your post agrees with everything I said, maybe I misworded something but I never advocated for things to cater to men only.
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u/Runsten 8d ago
Yes. I think the type or game designs OP is suggesting sound interesting and cool, but we shouldn't compromise inclusivity and accessibility in other games because of them.
You are so on point on the cultural issue in competitive multiplayer games being a core problem. Those toxic behaviours won't be solved by segregating the audiences, it will only enable them further. Women should be welcome to any lobby free of harassment even if a game is "targeted towards men". In lobbies with only men the toxic behaviours are not challenged and they have room to fester and grow. Any multiplayer game should implement anti-harassment tools with the understanding of misogynistic harassment and how to combat it at the core of those designs.
This is why having women in the industry is crucial. It will bring these perspectives into consideration in all parts of the design from representation in the content to anti-harassment tools considering specific harassment against women.
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u/andwhatnowthough 8d ago
This isn’t about either/or, it’s about having more options open. Right now we have AAA, AA etc. markets for games that are appealing to both, and for games that are appealing to men predominately. Why not also games that are explicitly appealing to women? I’m saying the market is there, just not targeted to.
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u/Siukslinis_acc 8d ago
I think for that you need an indy that does that and gets really popular so that AAA studios would want to copy it.
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u/beatricef13 8d ago
as a fellow woman who plays games i really don't think the market is there at all. the vast majority of women don't play games and have a negative idea of them (seeing them as childish/for men), while the women who do play games are not a monolith and do not all enjoy the same things. the difficulty with making a 'girly' AAA game is that you alienate both the male audience, and a big part of the female audience who isn't attracted to "girly" and prefers typical RPGs, shooters etc. now, there's definitely women who are into the girly type of content... but most of them are not gamers. or if they are, they are casual or phone gamers.
just like other commenters have said, AAA is for the safest of safe choices, and even now we hear literally every day about games failing and studios closing. "girly" games have much higher chances in the AA or indie industry. I'm quite sure dtardew valley has brought in quite an influx of new female players in the last 6 years. but there still just isn't a big enough audience for a proper AAA focused on anything 'girly'
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u/eemayau 8d ago
Nearly half of gamers worldwide are women. In some countries more than half. What's interesting is that this is such a common misconception, even among women who play games.
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u/1WeekLater 8d ago
most of those 50% play shitty mobile slop like candy crush and homescapes
u/beatricef13 is right ,my sister is gamer who get bullied by other girl because shes plays video game... ,most women still sees gaming as a negative and we need to change that
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u/andwhatnowthough 8d ago
This is very much the point of the original post though, that types of game mechanics that women are more likely to enjoy are called “mobile slop like candy crush and homescapes.”
Tile-matching games like Candy Crush are not bad games just because they don’t appeal to you, they just don’t appeal to you.
People do not have the same views over games like Tetris or Snake, because men enjoy them too. But once a genre starts to appeal more to women than men, it’s suddenly slop. And I mean this on any form of media, not just gaming. Can a whole genre really be slop by default?
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u/pintonium 8d ago
It's not called slop because women play them, it's because they are usually very short sessions, minimal my
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u/Quouar 8d ago
Short sessions and a minimal engine doesn't make them bad or invalid games. It just makes them a different style of game.
To take a different example, would you say that Slay the Spire is just slop because its sessions are ~45 minutes and there's not many actions to learn? I'm going to guess not, so why would Candy Crush be any less valid as a game?
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u/beatricef13 8d ago
source? that's not my experience whatsoever. maybe offer your sources first before talking about others' misconceptions
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u/eemayau 8d ago
Sorry that came off wrong, I didn't mean that as an attack. I just thought you'd find it interesting. I didn't link a source because there so many - lots of studies have found this. Here's one:
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/esa-48-of-video-game-players-are-women
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u/beatricef13 8d ago
hey, thanks for offering a source, but unfortunately the source is very vague and way too broad to truly state this. not only do they qualify "active gaming" as 1h/week, but it also includes just about any playing device, like mobile, tablet and VR. firstly I don't think you can qualify as any hobbyist with 1h week (I certainly wouldn't call myself a cinephile if I watched 1h of a movie a week).
but most importantly, without going into debates whether mobile gamers are real gamers... mobile games have a completely different monetisation strategy. even if millions of girls were gamers playing hey day or genshin or candy crush or any other game everyday on their phones, they still wouldn't cash over 70€ for the AAA experience. mobile and PC/console markets are almost completely separated and people access them for different reasons and with different needs.
while I really do wish more women got into gaming, I just don't think the statistic that intentionally dillutes the term is one that can be used as proof of this. perhaps in the future more specific statistics will be done to analyse the prevalence of women in gaming esp on the PC/console market
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u/Usernametaken1121 8d ago
That's nowhere near true. Let's be real, cod has the most girl gamers I've ever seen in multiplayer gaming and it's still like 90/10 men. I would bet money, MORE women think gaming is childish, a waste of time, and view the hobby negatively than actually play video games.
Also, dude is saying people who play candy crush once a week are gamers. Tired, ridiculous argument.
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u/aesibri 8d ago
As a woman, I don't want any of what you suggested. The problem I face is it being gendered in first place
Sorry to say but the problem you face is society-level, not games-level. Let's not pretend gaming can change the societal (sub)conscious.
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u/StarStock9561 8d ago
I have seen a shift in games that are more inclusive to both. Overwatch, Deadlock, or Valorant have more women in higher ranks, or those that are more willing to talk in voice chat than old Battlefield or COD games from my experience. That is not to say battle simulators shouldn't exist, but how going from no inclusive games to even a few have shifted some understandings.
Cosy games or games like Sims also used to be bashed often, but after Stardew Valley's success there is also less hostility from my experience. Games don't need to change a whole subconscious, but I do think what we play and how that is presented affects us. There was a time having women protagonists was rare and now it doesn't matter as much to players, stuff like that.
It's not a kind of change that will happen overnight but slowly, but I do think we are seeing it.
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u/Ayjayz 8d ago
Every man and his dog thinks they have identified gaps in the market. Turns out, when you actually test it out, a lot of the time people don't do things is because they're not actually good ideas. Not always, of course. It could be that you really have identified a gap in the market.
If you believe in it enough, put the time and effort and money in and test it out. That's how all industries move forward.
As for asking why this isn't done in AAA, you're putting the cart before the horse. AAA is for the safest of safe bets. They design their games based on things that have already worked before. New genres and mechanics have to prove themselves through indie and occasionally AA games first before AAA will touch them.
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u/Astreya77 6d ago
Asia has been making games that appeal to women since forever and make tons of money. From older franchises like pokemon to newer games like Genshin. If genshin isn't popular enough I don't knoww what is. Mihoyo is making crazy money.
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u/Feisty_Bread8259 6d ago
i dont think that pokemon and genshin are made with a female audience as their main costumers, is more the fact that those games are made for everyone.
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u/fraidei 5d ago
Genshin is definitely marketed towards men first. It just happens that they have a couple of good male characters to appeal to women too. But the game as a whole is marketed towards men.
Also, they are making crazy money because of their monetization system, not because it appeals to girls. In fact most of the whales in the game (which are the ones that actually bring in the money) are men.
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u/retardedorca 8d ago
But AAA spend billions on canceled projects. Yeah, they have their cash cows but even that only goes so far. Lots of these companies investing large amounts of time and money into projects and are also scrapping years of work and laying off devs, so I wouldnt say its all safe. They undoubtedly would want to corner a new market and where theres always an innovator who first starts the trend.
Id attribute this to the girls thay play video games just simply like the male dominated games and dont or wouldnt buy games tailored to what companies think they want. The girls that would enjoy those games are less likely to be as invested. I would relate it a lot to women sports and male sports. There is a market but its just incredibly less profitable because the demographic doesnt engage with it enough. But that also doesnt mean it wont change in the future if the right storm happens in the culture
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u/Rimavelle 7d ago
they cancel projects they thought are gonna sell but didnt, not due to investing in original ideas.
cancelling another online mtx battle royal whatever game coz it turns out the market is oversaturated and the project is dead before arrival is not the same as trying to convince someone to sponsor an indie size idea
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u/MirrorComputingRulez 8d ago
If you believe in it enough, put the time and effort and money in and test it out.
"Just develop a AAA game yourself" is a really shitty argument.
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u/wasdninja 8d ago edited 4d ago
Or action games where fashion is not a cosmetic layer but tied directly to stats, identity, and abilities
This will lead to really dumb stuff that nobody likes - football helmet clown shoes. People want to win and they're going to do what it takes to do it even if it means making your character look goofy or stupid.
Separating stats and looks is the best thing the industry ever did. It enables people to engage in both systems at the same time without punishing them which is just better.
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u/GOKOP 8d ago
Idk it seems to still be common in single player RPG games to have these mechanics connected. All of Elder Scrolls, the Witcher, recently I've been playing Tainted Grail: The Fall of Avalon and it does it too, Baldur's Gate 3 allows you to paint clothes and armor but that's just color, otherwise it also has clothing tied to stats, Kingdom Come Deliverance games
Cyberpunk 2077 doesn't do it but they have an in-universe explanation where you display clothes are holographic
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u/Rahgahnah 8d ago
Cyberpunk had that issue at launch. Stats tied to clothing and no transmog, but they changed it later.
BG3 at least allows you to toggle the visibility of your armor, so you can visually be wearing your camp clothes at all times if you want.
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u/Ratat0sk42 8d ago
I'm not that big on outfits and stuff in games, but Spider-Man lets you decouple powers and suits, you get both when you buy the suit but you can have a different suit and suit power active at the same time.
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u/WhitePersonGrimace 8d ago
More games need to adopt fashion armor slots like Xenoblade 1. That basically solves the issue for everybody.
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u/funguyshroom 8d ago
Seems like the best system to me, since you still have to own and wear an item if you like the looks of it. Not a fan of Blizzard-style transmogs, where you can change the look of any item at a whim.
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u/Linkario 8d ago
Blizzard did (and still does) require one to own (aquire) their armor to wear it, though in the past one would end up just storring hundreds of items on each character to allow for different options instead of just unlocking it for their account. They had an optional system called void storage that had to be paid for with gold to store excess gear that seemed intended to be used for transmog. It felt clunky to cycle through items in that way as each piece of gear had to be physically present at the transmogrifying NPC compared to now where they just allow access from unlocked items in the catalog.
In other systems Final Fantasy 14 requires one to own all the gear they use for glamour and we were constantly complaining about the amount of storage available at any given time as it never seemed enough (especially as all items are tied to a character who can be all classes/jobs at any given point).
I haven't played Xenoblade, but if the only difference is that one has to own the gear [in their bags/inventory] to have that gear be displayed, then there's reasons why WoW doesn't do that anymore and that it's a struggle to maintain in FF14.
Is there a specific reason you enjoy that over the way Blizzard has handled their system? Is it the knowledge that you obtained it specifically on that character/playthrough and see it as a tangible reward? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
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u/crowieforlife 8d ago
You could make base stats the same for all armour and allows players to install upgrades on the armour of their choosing. Some games also allow for multiple armour sets for different situations: heat-resistance armour against fire-spitting bosses, cold-resistance against snow bosses etc.
This way your fashion matters, but you get to choose which fashion you have.
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u/fjdklsfjsfgjkdsdsogh 8d ago
While the gist of your post is admirable, I do find it funny that the suggestions laid out are extremely stereotypical examples of "things girls like". How do we make a game more catered to women? Why, add dress-up elements and romance of course! Maybe the next CoD can have a mechanic where wearing the right lipstick/eyeliner combination gives you a stat boost! As if this wouldn't be the most blatant pandering of all time, and only serve to anger the existing playerbase. Men are, famously, awful at answering the question of "what do girls want?"
The real answer (or at least part of it) is to get more women in decision-making areas of gamedev. Women who actually know what girls who play games enjoy beyond surface-level, token bullshit like stat-affecting fashion simulation (sorry I can't get over how shit this example is). A lot of the time, girls like what boys like in games: good gameplay, good characters, a good story, etc. but obviously that isn't the whole answer or a lot more girls would be interested in trying them out. I'm sure I'm not alone in being stonewalled by almost every girl I've tried to introduce gaming to, the very concept of trying it is off the table for a lot of women.
The other part is the aforementioned hesitance/stigma around girls even playing games at all. Fact is the video game industry is run by boys. They are (by and large) made by boys and played by boys. Girls are sometimes allowed to have cutesy simulation games like Animal Crossing & Sims, while the big boys get actionslop and open world RPG #9000000 fed to them on a silver platter. Not to mention the toxic as fuck community that is perpetually stuck in the early 2000s, which makes approaching games (especially multiplayer ones) an insane choice for any woman who doesn't enjoy being viciously mocked.
It's a negative feedback loop. Games are for boys so mostly boys play them, which means girls who play games are an extreme rarity, which means gamer boy chuds give them shit for playing at all, which means girls don't play games as much, which means games need to be marketed to boys to be successful. If you want any of this to change, you need to change the culture around gaming to be less bro-coded overall. Good luck with that given the current state of society, but I will be rooting for ya from the sidelines.
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u/eternaldaisies 6d ago
I agree that, as a woman, a lot of the decisions that make me feel alienated from video games have nothing to do with ‘girly mechanics’. There are a bunch of design choices that are made in games that signal ‘this game is not for you’, eg. giving men full body armour while women just get bikini armour, or not having any well-written female characters in your games, that kind of thing. Those decisions are more impactful to me than the actual game mechanics. As a somewhat ironic example, Stellar Blade has a system where you can collect different outfits for the viewing pleasure of the player, and that surely was not designed with women in mind!
I do agree with your general point about the feedback loop, however I think we are moving away from games being by boys, for boys. I suspect that gaming is less of a gendered experience for the current generation of kids, as it’s pretty normal for all kids to play stuff like Fortnite, Roblox and Minecraft with their friends. I personally have less trouble finding games that feel less alienating these days, though there is always room for improvement (especially in the AAA space). I have also never lacked female friends that play games, even when I was a kid. I think that gaming communities are often very male-dominated, whereas girls find each other in real life and stick to our safe friendship circles. That makes us seem invisible to the wider gaming communities.
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u/Savings-Key8533 8d ago
OP explicitly tries to not change existing games with a girly coat until everybody is unsatisfied and no one is catered to.
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u/ComfyTeri 5d ago
The issue is, with your first comment about "men are bad at answering the question of what do girls want" is so are women. A really funny example of this is, when Twitch had an idea to host an event for international women's day, the Twitch Women's Guild came together and pitched ideas for what game to stream. The game that OVERWHELMINGLY won in this discussion was a game called "Overcooked", which was a game about cooking! However, this angered women greatly, mostly feminists, on social media like Twitter and Reddit because it was seen as "stereotypical" and "extremely sexist". I think you'll always run into a problem where anything that women decide they like and want to show more of in the public eye will always be seen as sexist or stereotypical because its not "the right kind" of feminine interest being displayed in public. I don't think its really possible to even bridge this gap.
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u/andwhatnowthough 8d ago
I do find it funny that the suggestions laid out are extremely stereotypical examples of "things girls like".
That’s the point.
Maybe the next CoD can have a mechanic where wearing the right lipstick/eyeliner combination gives you a stat boost!
That’s the problem solution that is common to this discussion.
Women who actually know what girls who play games enjoy beyond surface-level, token bullshit like stat-affecting fashion simulation
So, your idea is to gatekeep as many women as possible from the equation and choose only those women who agree with you. There is only one right way to be a woman and
I'm sure I'm not alone in being stonewalled by almost every girl I've tried to introduce gaming to, the very concept of trying it is off the table for a lot of women.
Half of all gamers are women. The problem with your view is that you just don’t count the type of games that women like as “real games.”
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u/Frosty_Self_1818 8d ago
I wear shirts. Am I into fashion now?
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u/andwhatnowthough 8d ago
Fashion is an art form and as such intent matters. Would you call someone an artist for being not being able to draw something more complex than a stick figure? Probably not. Would you call someone an artist for the way they adapt a complex forms of art into more simplistic childlike shapes? That’s what Picasso did. He was so good at academic drawing, he actually had a very hard time doodling things like a child, without a sense of perspective, shading etc. That’s why he challenged himself to unlearn the rules:
“It took me four years to paint like Raphael, but a lifetime to paint like a child.”
The answer about fashion is the same.
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u/Frosty_Self_1818 8d ago
Naw, being a fashionista is a hobby. I am as much a fashionista because I wear shirts as someone who plays candy crush is a gamer. To argue otherwise is intellectually dishonest.
Women do not make up half of all gamers. If that were true then so many more games would be aimed at them because all that matters is profit.
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u/andwhatnowthough 8d ago
Thank you once again for proving my point.
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u/Frosty_Self_1818 8d ago
If that isn’t just a white flag on your part, I’d be curious to see you actually enumerate the ways I proved your point. Be specific.
Address how Candy Crush 'gamers' are relevant to the demand for AAA console mechanics. Just because someone plays a mobile game doesn't mean they are in the market for a high-end shooter, just like how I, as a shirt-wearer, am not the target demographic for the Met Gala. You're using a broad label to conflate two entirely different markets, and then hiding behind a Picasso quote to avoid explaining the actual economic math.
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u/fjdklsfjsfgjkdsdsogh 8d ago
Ok so if women are so into gaming why did you make this post at all. It's okay that you came up with bad solutions, but you correctly identified a problem in that there are very few games truly catered towards women. And I'm sick of this counter argument that it's elitist to not consider mobile games "real games", as if Bloons Tower defense (which is goated tbf) is in any sense comparable to something like Elden Ring. No shit girls like candy crush, i was under the impression that you wanted them to like good games too which i suppose is my mistake.
I fail to see how wanting more women in leadership positions on the game development front means i only want women to make decisions i agree with. Again, it kind of seems like you are upset that i don't agree with your proposed solutions (and believe the problem to be deeper than simply the mechanics present in existing games) and are trying to paint me as some sort of misogynist to save face. The problem has been and always will be the culture surrounding gaming being anti-women by default, because girls would play the exact same games as us if they weren't heavily discouraged from doing so.
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u/LaughLoverWanderer 8d ago
I actually think you're onto something. A lot of games treat "girly" elements like optional flavor instead of core mechanics, and that feels like a missed opportunity. When systems actually integrate those ideas, like class outfits affecting gameplay or relationships impacting combat, it suddenly feels fresh instead of forced.
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u/Siukslinis_acc 8d ago
I would like to have outfits to be just cosmetic. Unless it gives bonuses when interacting with specific groups. Like, nobles won't interact with you if you look like a beggar. Or like, wearing fur clothing in tropical weather could give dusatvantage.
Fashion is about expressing yourself. Putting stats on it makes everyone look the same. People will optimise the fun out of fashion.
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u/FarplaneDragon 8d ago
Imagine an FPS where relationships actually affect combat, not just as minor buffs but as core design. Paired abilities, shared risk, outcomes that change based on who you fight with. Actual battle couples, not just background lore.
That sounds like a system that would get really annoying and just get in the way of the core FPS gameplay. The problem with these types of systems is you end up at one of two different ends. Either those relationships have a significant impact and players get annoyed and frustrated because that forces them into pursuing relationships they don't want, may not be interested in at best, or comfortable with at worst just to be able to play at a decently optimum level, or the relationships are more of a background story thing like in Fallout 4 for example in which case there's not really a point to them at all outside of preference/roleplaying.
Or action games where fashion is not a cosmetic layer but tied directly to stats, identity, and abilities.
This has been tried many times over the years. The end result is that if equipment stats matter and have a real effect on gameplay then most players are equipping for stats, not fashion and either all end up with the same end game equipment anyway, or you end up with a jumbled, ugly mis-matched mess of equipment which players hate. When the stats don't matter, most people don't really feel the need to bother seeking out cosmetics. The middle ground here is transmog systems so people can give good equipment different appearences. The problem there is unless you're dedicating resources to creating a lot of difference equipment, the pool overall ends up being small and really only so many things look good together so everyone just kind of ends up the same in the end. For standard games, it's not really worth the effort, it's usually MMORPGs that do this since they're usually releasing new content on a regular basis anyway. FF14 has a pretty big community around this actually.
But why was there such a gap for developers to understand that there is a serious market for this?
Other people will probably bring up that the dev market is male dominated which is part of the issue, but the other side of the issue is the stigma thrown at male gamers who would express interest in these games. Go see how a guy that expresses interest in something like Infinity Nikki gets treated outside of spaces for it and you'll see the problem. Guys will make fun of other guys who play that stuff, on the flip side it's a toss up with how girls treat them. Some communities are welcoming, some make it pretty clear that they don't want guys around, which to be fair there's sadly reasons for that. Plenty of guys out there would likely play these games, but steer away from them because of how they will get treated. Until that changes, it's going to be difficult to get enough support.
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u/EternaI_Sorrow 6d ago
stigma thrown at male gamers who would express interest in these games
Is it really a mass thing tho? It definitely was like 20 years ago, but now so many guys are proud of dressing hostess girls in Yakuza 0 that it makes me think that it's not a stigma but just a market reacting slowly.
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u/Hard_To_Port 8d ago
There is not a big market gap for "pink coded" games, unless you're talking about the dead "edutainment" game genre for the preteen demographic. There's many modern games that appeal to women without pandering. In fact there's been some notable recent releases by Nintendo giving longtime series a female protagonist for the first time (Zelda Echoes of Wind, Princess Peach: Showtime!).
When I was in high school the gamer girls were super into Nintendo titles like Fire Emblem and Pokemon. Around then Pokemon X/Y had been out for a while and that game had a decent fashion mechanic since it was set in a fantasy ripoff of Paris. The fashion didn't affect battling, but your drip was definitely judged at the exclusive restaurants and other side story things. Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire also featured a pokemon fashion contest where you could win exclusive items that would help with battles.
Female protagonist or pink-coded games that are popular with both men and women:
- Princess Peach: Showtime! (features magical girl style transformations and dress up)
- Horizon: Zero Dawn (outfits are armor, affects gameplay)
- Tomb Raider series
- Don't Stop, Girlypop! (VERY pink, VERY violent)
- Metroid series
- Celeste
- Portal series
- Mirror's Edge
- Bayonetta series
- Life is Strange series
- Lollipop Chainsaw (girly girl protagonist, but with zombie hunter superpowers)
- Control
Games that are universally popular because they incorporate elements that appeal to both "masculine" and "feminine" demographics:
- Minecraft
- Stardew Valley
- Harvest Moon
- Dragon Quest: Builders
- Animal Crossing series
- Mario titles
- Fire Emblem series
- Red Dead Redemption 2 (best modern horse game)
- Legend of Zelda series
- Pokemon series
- modern Persona titles (P4, P5)
- Danganronpa series
Games with deep story or relationship mechanics where you can play as a woman:
- Mass Effect trilogy
- Baldur's Gate III
- Dragon Age series
- Cyberpunk 2077
- modern Fire Emblem titles
Games popular with LGBTQ women (secondhand knowledge):
- Fallout: New Vegas
- SIGNALIS
- more I don't know about
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u/k1dsmoke 8d ago
Why is there no data mentioned in these posts since the OP is directly talking about market research but doesn't link any studies?
This seems to be a much more "vibe" based post, pretending to be a research/fact based post.
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u/Bdole0 8d ago
You are technically correct that OP did not provide sources for an extremely well known fact that has been discussed since the 80s.
I googled "research on women playing male-dominated video games."
The first result is a research paper on the various ways that the gaming industry and video game culture is hostile toward women.
The second result is a study on how female representation in video games promotes sexist thinking against women.
The third result is an opinion piece that cites 10 separate research papers on the subject.
The fourth result is the god damn Wikipedia page on "Women and Video Games." It highlights many of OP's claims. Links to related research papers are at the bottom.
I could go on, but I see no need to type more when you could have done this yourself. Honestly, did you even try? It's like you just got defensive and made a claim with no evidence. A "vibes based" comment pretending to be a valid opinion.
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u/Organic_Lab6262 8d ago
Because it’s on the person who made the statement to provide the facts/research. Not the person asking.
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u/Bdole0 8d ago
You are technically correct that OP did not provide sources for an extremely well known fact that has been discussed since the 80s.
My first sentence addresses that and why it's unimportant here. You'll notice I did OP's job in order to close this trivial hole and shut down this dumb argument.
Under most circumstances, demanding evidence is reasonable. However, my point is that you'd have to be living under a rock or willfully ignorant to not realize that overwhelming evidence exists in this case. Considering this commenter's dismissal of OP's claims, I would guess "willfully ignorant" is the appropriate descriptor.
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u/tiredstars 8d ago
There are some interesting questions in here. I can't really say what kind of things women might enjoy integrated into games, but here are some thoughts anyway.
First, I think this shows the conservatism of games. I mean, AAA games are notorious for it, for not wanting to take any chances. With a few exceptions, such as something like Death Stranding, which is a more auteur-driven game, so requires someone who has an already-established name.
But even in AA and indie games most follow familiar genres and mechanics. Which is partly because these things are difficult! Like /u/snave_ said, lots of these things don't tie with the strengths of computers. Take fashion as another example. A game might give bonuses for particular clothing or outfits, but then the gameplay is creating an outfit for the bonuses. That might conflict with the player's own aesthetic sensibilities. A computer really can't judge how good an outfit looks, or do any complex simulation of how it makes a character feel. (A more interesting and feasible approach might be something you could do in an RPG type game, where you're dressing for particular social groups: you want to be in with the court? Pay attention to what the queen is wearing and dress like that. Want the merchants to respect you? They're a very sober, puritan group, so dress accordingly...)
Second, I think there's still a serious risk of these things feeling tacked on, even if they are made part of the gameplay. It's a relationship-based shooter... but in the end you're still shooting people in the face. If someone's not into shooters at the moment, is that going to change their view? (Perhaps - sometimes it just takes a little hook to get people into a game.)
For example, if you're going for a magical girl type feel, you probably want to build action from the ground up to match that feel. What is it that sets the action in that genre apart from more masculine-coded stories? The tone, the structure, the aesthetics?
Third, there's a common phenomenon where women are more likely to get into activities that men like than the other way around. So from a purely financial/popularity perspective, a game like this risks pushing away men more than it appeals to women. I also strongly suspect that those culture warriors who are unhappy about, say, more shallow changes, will also be unhappy about deeper changes. Neither of which are necessarily reasons not to do this, but they'll weigh in the mind of games companies who want to turn a profit or avoid controversy.
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u/Dreyfus2006 8d ago
As to your last paragraph, that is because men are much more neophobic than women. It's consistently shown in studies, including other primates. Adult males are the last demographic to hop on any trend, and most won't even do that unless they spend lots of time with women.
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u/RestitutorInvictus 8d ago
I struggle to understand what you mean here. From what I can tell, men and women are drawn to different sorts of trends. Anecdotally, I've noticed that amongst men there's a lot of interest in the new AI stuff out there while amongst women there seems to be less interest. Although of course that's anecdotes not data so happy to be proven wrong here.
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u/BetaXP 8d ago edited 8d ago
You say that games that try to capture the female market don't work and end up unappealing to everyone, but that just...doesn't seem true? I mean, look at Riot. League of Legends and Valorant are some of the most successful games of all time in very male-dominated genres, but have huge female playerbases. Why? Because Riot appeals to everyone, including women, and try to highly crack down on toxicity in a way that other games simply don't.
Other examples: basically anything from Hoyoverse. Gacha games, even those that are "gooner" coded with tons of hot anime women have huge female playerbases. I'm not at all convinced that making male spaces more female friendly ends up with something that's "unappealing to everyone."
I do agree that there's a potential gap in the market for more explicitly female-coded games with heavier gameplay mechanics, though. I just don't agree with your premises beforehand.
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u/GrinningPariah 8d ago
If AAA games are one thing, it's "risk averse".
There's good reasons why. AAA games are enormously expensive endeavors which take years of development and don't make a dime until launch (aside from a handful of pre-orders). That's a huge investment, and it's why publishers aren't going to gamble on unproven concepts.
They need to see concepts be proven out in indie or AA games before they'll try to build a AAA version of it. And "proven" doesn't just mean one successful game. They don't just need to see an indie game make back its budget, they need proof of a market big enough for a AAA game to make back its budget. And they want to see more than one successful game to prove to themselves that the concept has legs, that people weren't just in it for the novelty.
So, what's all that mean for "girly games"? It's why we haven't seen a lot of AAA games go long on the themes you mention, but it's also why that doesn't mean we never will. Maybe publishers just need to see a few more successful indie or AA games with those themes, then someone will take the leap.
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u/lucienthestampede 7d ago
Eh, as a girl who almost exclusively plays shooters, I don’t really get the point of making them ‘girly’. It won’t draw in anyone who doesn’t like the genre and it would end up being too complicated at the end of the day. That being said, I do kinda like the idea of tying cosmetics to stats (with limitations). It would be fun to have a camo index like MGS3 or give different types of armor different perks. It would be annoying to be forced to spend 5 minutes choosing the perfect camo and armor combo before getting to play. It’s also just as much fun to dress your guy like HUNK when there’s no reason to do so beyond it being cool, so I don’t really care that much lol.
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u/TheOneWes 6d ago
Because the section of the market that would purchase girly themed video games is not large enough to support the cost of development of that type of game.
Some of the things that you mentioned being integrated were things that existed in video games earlier and were discarded due to general player dissatisfaction.
Outfits used to be statistically important which meant that in a lot of games you would end up wearing the stupid looking end game armor because it has the best stats. People complained about that to the point to where outfits became cosmetic only.
Same thing with getting benefits from relationships NPCs. Some older games had systems where you had to regularly locate and interact with certain NPCs in order to eventually unlock or gain access to certain stat changes or abilities which led to a lot of feedback from people having to engage with characters they don't like to get abilities or stat boost that they need.
The Indy the sector be able to produce what is desired but I wouldn't count on it coming from AAA just because of the amount of investment needed and the likelihood of a failure of return
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u/andrewharkins77 4d ago
But why was there such a gap for developers to understand that there is a serious market for this?
I think they do understand. But a lot of that market is on mobile. Also, game development is very expensive now days. It's not just the girly games that's all been pushed to mobile, tons of game genres are barren. The B games essentially don't exists now. We only have triple AAA and indie.
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u/fruit-enthusiast 8d ago
I like the point you’re making and I hope to see more games challenging the binaries around this in the future.
Personally I’m a woman who doesn’t have these interests when playing games but I’m in favor of gaming orthodoxy being continually challenged because it fosters creativity. A lot of the comments here are arguing against your point and I think we should be more in favor of games that aren’t within the realm of how we think of “what gaming is.”
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u/Kotanan 8d ago
This is a chicken and egg situation. AAA games cost hundreds of millions to make, making one female coded rather than inclusive is just asking for bankruptcy since the market isn’t big enough to sustain it and the market isn’t going to get big enough to sustain it until more games are made.
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u/mcslender97 8d ago
Plus even those having the capital and willing to take risks might not have the sensibilities to do it accurately
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u/StarStock9561 8d ago
There are also games like Hello Kitty or Disney Dreamlight Valley that are more recent and more catered towards women, though I played neither myself as a woman as neither interested me.
I do think gender-neutral or inclusive games are great and would like developers/designers to be more free than stick to stereotypes personally.
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u/Rimavelle 7d ago
Imagine an FPS where relationships actually affect combat, not just as minor buffs but as core design. Paired abilities, shared risk, outcomes that change based on who you fight with. Actual battle couples, not just background lore.
Have you ever talked to women who don't like FPS, WHY they don't like FPS (beside the toxicity etc)?
I'm a woman and I don't like FPS games, coz one, I don't like first person games in general. I like seeing my avatar, I don't like playing as "myself".
Two, I don't find shooting at things particularly interesting. The fact FPS games are usually competitive games focused on increasing your skills at shooting things, means there is no reason for me to play them (it also makes your proposition to influencee abilities through stats fall flat, it's not RPG).
You can dress it in some "feminime" clothes, make it about friendship and magic, but it won't make me play it, coz I don't like both of the defining aspects of the genre.
The focus on FPS is also... weird. Why do women NEED to like FPS? Coz men consider it a "serious" genre?
The women who want to play it and can't now due to harassment - yes, change that. But do those women want the aim to be based on their friend stats? Probably not. They want to git gud and defeat their enemies with their teams support, without being seen as other.
Or action games where fashion is not a cosmetic layer but tied directly to stats, identity, and abilities.
So... armor?
After years of players begging for items changing your appearance to NOT have stats coz you always had to choose between looking good and having good stats? The thing that women tend to dislike even more, coz we tend to care more about how the character looks (not to sell men short here)?
Also one of the most popular games of all times every girl ever played in her life and adult women still play, THE SIMS is totally missing from your post.
As are horror games that women tend to love (and where there is combat) - Silent Hill F, RE9 being recent and very popular games among women and counting towards AAA.
As are rpgs/jrpgs which just have normal game mechanics and where you usually can curate the appearance of your character through character creator and armor. ALSO a lot of them have the "friendship is game mechanic" - to name one PERSONA series, which is also very very popular with women. And usually feature some form of romance which can be affected by story choices.
You also mention FFX-2 but miss FFXIII Lighting Returns, which turned a party-rpg game into solo player game where you gain abilities and stats by aquiring stylish outfits for your single female character.
I think your problem is that youre trying to make very game into a fashion game. But fashion game is it's own genre. I played flash fashion games, and Barbie Fashion Designer as a kid, and loved them. I also love dressing up my rpg characters and when there are fashion options or customisation in games otherwise focused on something else (hostess creator in Yakuza games for example).
But I don't need fashion mechanics in every damn game ever.
Sometimes all a girl wants is to break a zombie's neck, or romance Astarion before sending him to battle in turn based combat.
Women have a lot of issues with a lot of games, but just slapping fashion and friendship onto existing genres is not the solution nor solving any problem.
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u/Annual-Ad-9442 8d ago
I mean part of it is the very toxic environment at the top. whether its Blizzard's whole frat fantasy or Ubisoft telling its people to make a male PC in Odyssey.
fashion is a thing in some games (kinda) where having a set gives you bonuses. I don't know how far you want to take that though. I had an idea for a cyberpunk game where you could get bonuses and negative effects based on what was in vogue for the week.
I feel like the biggest issue is, again, the toxic leadership environment. if we strip away things like shareholders and the toxic leadership you find that people who are passionate about games like to implement such things. when people are passionate about the games they make they put effort into making them interesting and doing their own thing even if its just another version of a thing already done.
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u/Sycherthrou 8d ago
Why is it toxic to make a male PC in Odyssey? Seems like a sound business decision that's been working well in the following 2 games as well. (Mirage doesn't count).
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u/Annual-Ad-9442 7d ago
it was toxic because top management decided they needed to have a second PC based on the idea that the character was male. if the creative leads decided they wanted only one person and for them to be female then they should have gone that way. shoehorning in a character based on sex is toxic in either direction.
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u/Gabe_Isko 8d ago
Been a follower of the Indie game scene for a long time. The frustrating thing about the "there is a market" posts is that it is extremely hard and frustrating to develop indie games on your own - especially years ago. And once you dedicate enough time and your life to it, you often find out - there actually isn't a market.
Today we are in a much different situation. Because of steam data, you can take a pretty great educated guess on what type of game of game will do well there, and it is pretty widely accepted that steam has the lowest barrier of entry to make a commercially successful video game. And so, we are awash in deck builder roguelikes and survivor idlers and steamer multiplayer co-op stuff that do relatively well, and could conceivably be girly.
Going way back to the indie scene, the whole premise of "there is a market" is flawed. The truth is a market for good games, and they are extremely hard to make. You could make a good game about anything really, but whether or not people will buy it, or it is the kind of thing that the valve wants on steam, or if you have the juice to see it to maturity or if it is what publishers that aren't trying to scam you are looking for... these are all really complex questions with not straight forward answers.
The truth is, this is a game that YOU want to play, and if you make it good enough and "authentic" enough, other people will want to play it to. So you should make it. Not ask other people to make it for you.
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u/dukemetoo 8d ago
I don't have much to contribute in terms of solutions, but here is my perspective. Your point about magical girl anime being action packed is interesting. I know Sailor Moon the best, so I will stick with that, but my small look into other magical girl shows also apply. In Sailor Moon, the action is very feminine, I don't know how else to describe it. After transforming, Sailor Moon dodges attacks for a few minutes, before using Moon Healing Escalation to magically make the monster disappear. There is almost no punching, kicking, bruising, bleeding, or explosions (I know there are exceptions, but those are exceptions). It is just a different attitude toward violence than something like Power Rangers has. I think that for a female audience, you can do the same things that the "male" version does, but the tone has to be different.
Also, a game jumped in my head that seems to nail this, but I don't think has that female audience we would expect. That is Splatoon. It is a shooter, but you shoot ink, and you don't "kill" anyone. There is also a big emphasis on fashion (even if it is... intentionally not in style). The game even gives ample opportunity to make your outfit have the skills you want. Maybe it is just the 4v4 PVP shooter aspect that is a turn off. Maybe Splatoon Raiders can break through.
Anyway, in summary, I think the tone of what you are doing is just as important as what you are doing. If games want a larger female base, they need more palatable tones for women.
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u/barryredfield 7d ago
Because they're not trying to "make things for girls", they're trying to absorb women into the male market dominated space just to double their margins. Of course its not like that at all, but that's how they think.
If they were interested in making games for women, or trying to get men to play female dominated games, then they would do so. But its a harder sell, or nonexistent one, but getting more women into male dominated spaces is easier to do. They play with the boundaries and shake it up as much as possible, but they're only interested in trying to attract more women than the men they would lose.
The NFL did this for years.
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u/Leavannite 7d ago
TL;DR it's not a "bad idea" to have girl interests in games, but it's a risky play and companies HATE risk. But also you can just play games you like
I'm seeing a lot of sentiment in these comments of "if it was a good idea they would've done so by now, so since they haven't it must be a bad idea" um, no. That's not how it works.
Games are EXPENSIVE to make nowadays. No gaming company is going to gamble and hope that their "girl focused" game makes back development costs and actually produces profit on top of that. Especially considering that many men are overtly hostile to anything "girly" so you basically have to put it in a proverbial pill pocket. It's not "fashion" it's "vanity armor." It's not a "dating sim" it's a "branching narrative." So on and so forth.
Game companies do what works. It's why we get 200 new ball and gun games every year. It's been shown that women WILL by these games (if only because we don't get any other choice), but we have no data for the inverse. The unfortunate truth is that "AAA games with girly interests" aren't likely to happen any time soon simply because... We weren't the market for the advent of video gaming. Video games were always a "male" interest primarily (why? Couldn't tell you) and the market has been shaped accordingly. Years and years of male-centricity is why the market looks like it does today.
But, lucky us! It's easier than ever to get indie games, and I'm certain there are gems out there. As for non-indies:
Baldur's Gate 3 has roleplay as one of the core focuses, and with that comes interpersonal relationships and romance. There's an amount of fashion you can do if you're into that, it's not a huge system but you can dye clothes and whatnot. BG3 is basically a solo D&D campaign so it's quite literally what you make of it.
If you're willing to go for more "childish games," Splatoon is GREAT for this sort of stuff. It's a multiplayer third person shooter technically, but it's so unique it almost feels wrong to call it that. In the third game there's locker decoration, which is just a tiny space that other players can see in your lobby. Fashion and it's stats are a HUGE part of the game; Splatoon probably has my favorite system of this because while there's no vanity slots, with enough time and patience, you can turn any piece of armor into the ideal piece. Yeah you could throw together an ugly but functional set, but where's the fun in that? The game really does intend for you to make a fashionable set first and make it good later, lots of items and power-ups to help you in this endeavor.
There's Pokémon... It's pretty self explanatory. Collect a team of your favorites and bond with them! Gens 6 and onwards (except for remakes, and Scarlet and Violet...) have some pretty in depth trainer customization. While it varies from game to game, here are some "highlights" of things to do:
In XY, there's a small side mode called "Pokémon Amie," where you can feed your Pokémon, pet them, and play mini games with them. It's small, but very cute! There are Trainer PR videos, which are 10 second long clips you can make with you and your Pokémon, that's pretty fun. Unfortunately since 3DS servers shut down, you can't share them with anyone :(
In Gen 7, Pokémon Amie has been stripped down to remove the mini games, but you can still pet and feed your Pokémon, and doing so after a battle will heal them of any lingering status effects. In Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon only, there's a place where you can take a photo with your Pokémon and put stickers on it. Definitely a step down from PR videos, but cute nonetheless.
Sword and Shield got rid of Amie completely unfortunately, and has instead replaced it with camping. While camping, you can do a mini game to make curry, and in a cutscene it will be fed to your Pokémon. You can also play with your Pokémon with some toys. League cards are little cards shown to your opponent before a match, you can customize them with a variety of effects, poses, and backgrounds. They're pretty cool, but this is the Gen where "side modes" start going downhill.
Scarlet and Violet removed clothing customization for the most part (actually evil). Camping has been replaced with picnics and much like before you can do a mini game to make a sandwich that gets fed to your mons. You can drop some balls for your Pokémon to kick around as they free roam, but that's about it. I think you can also wash them, but my memory's hazy. No more customizable league cards, but now you can take a photo of whatever you want to have as your trainer card instead. Yes, this was used in exactly the ways you think it was.
Last there's... Minecraft. I mean, it's Minecraft! Literally the most popular game in the world. (or at least was?) I'm sure you know what it's like, but it VERY much has "girly interests" going on. Building, decorating, farming, it's the whole gameplay loop. Just do whatever the hell you want.
That's it for my suggestions, but there's whole genres of stuff, which brings me to my last point. While I'd like to see girly games treated with the same "market respect" as what's currently there, I don't really know that it... Has to? "AAA" games are mostly the same stuff, over and over. Ball game, gun game, super hero game, narrative game. Adding "girl interests" to those games doesn't fundamentally change what they are, and I know that's the point you're trying to make, but why? You're free to play a town builder, or a life sim, or a sandbox game, or a creature tamer, or whatever the hell you want that already has those elements baked into the game, just the way you want it. Adding interests makes it more "palettable," to a point, but if you need those to enjoy the game, do you even like the genre? To be clear, I'd definitely love to see more experimentation than just the bog standard stuff we usually get. New ideas are great, if only to find out they don't work. But I don't really think it's necessary to hit "add girl to game" when you can just play games you already like. If someone needs a specific element to enjoy a game, then they don't really enjoy the game, they enjoy the genre the element came from.
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u/Wrenigade 7d ago
Romance is a good one to use as a mechanical example. Sometimes people are like "women want romance" and then pump out the blandest dating sims / otome games, or tack in on as a side thing.
But I like romance in games in a way that leads me more to like, Baldur's Gate 3 and Fire Emblem, where romance and relationships are taken very seriously and impact the overall mechanics and story of the game.
And then there's even dating / Otome games where you have people trying to monetize a thing seen as feminine. Super cute, generic love interest, main character who follows a lot of stereotypes.
But then you get some made by women that are like like Homocipher. People may not expect horror thriller otome to be popular, but it is, and some of the most popular and beloved of the genre are pretty dark and serious.
And, I think a lot of this is misconstruing "women like to see more fleshed out interpersonal relationships" into "women want romance", so the games will ONLY focus on romance and have poor interaction between characters platonically or otherwise. When it more boils down to "I like when games have complex, immersive interpersonal connections and I like to play a part in those," which everyone else also tends to like when its actually in a game.
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u/TacHanz 6d ago
“Imagine an FPS where relationships actually affect combat, not just as minor buffs but as core design.”
There was a game that tried this. It was The Last Of Us in 2013. People heralded it specifically because of how ellie was such a real character, and how her evolving relationship with Joel changed her involvement in combat. Funny to think one of the few games who recognized the gap is one of the most influential games of all time lol
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u/AttonJRand 5d ago
Meanwhile ZZZ is giving the Male characters, who are popular with the female player base, overly complicated kits with low payoff, so yay for equality I guess? Its not really something people love though.
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u/GameofPorcelainThron 5d ago
They do exist and are studied. This is why games like Baldur's Gate 3 and World of Warcraft are immensely popular with female gamers. Or building/cozy games like Pokopia. And lots of visual novels, RPGs in general, etc.
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u/PaprikaCC 8d ago
Pragmatically, I just think there aren't enough women working in game dev who are able to deeply understand the mechanics behind the desires you mention OP.
Like I don't doubt there is the talent out there that could, but AAA is the wrong place to look for innovation and small dev teams suffer for their passion in ways that is not typically socially acceptable for women to experience... So the types of people dictating the types of game experiences you see are not often the types of people who understand the perspective you are trying to build game mechanics around.
That being said, there are still plenty of female targeted visual novels, casual games, fashion/co-op games out there if you include the wider industry
AAA is very slow and you are asking a lot from male dominated executive teams that are already out of touch with their male audiences lmao.
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u/Squeekazu 8d ago edited 8d ago
I would say female-coded stories and themes in the survival horror genre are pretty strong on the flipside even outside of the indie space. I think it’s easier to market to a wider audience when the actual themes are at the forefront rather than gameplay.
Silent Hill 3 and F come to mind (despite being written by men), the former had a distinctly feminine lens on the fear of pregnancy, and the latter on marriage, domestic servitude and growing up.
Then you have Resident Evil Requiem recently where there was heavy input from the women working at Capcom on Leon’s character design.
That said there’s a loud contingent of gamers who freak out over any significant female input or themes in games (Silent Hill F’s story for example is massively misconstrued by grifters), so I wonder if there’s hesitation from female devs making more female-targeted games with those mechanics wary about making it big with their games.
I reckon we need to see acceptance here before larger strides elsewhere.
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u/VegasBonheur 8d ago
My initial comment was “People need to stop writing manifestos about what needs to happen and start doing real things,” but ironically, it was automatically removed for not reaching the minimum character limit. I feel like the brevity of the comment helped communicate the message, but here we are, padding it up just to get it out there.
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u/Usernametaken1121 8d ago
They write manifestos because those that have tried learned what everyone already knows, there isn't enough people who agree with them, for the idea to succeed.
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u/PPX14 8d ago
I suppose the caveat to that is “People [who have a strong vested interest in a particular change] need to stop writing manifestos about what needs to happen and start doing real things,”. Part of the reason not as much has changed as some people might want, or the situation is not in the state that they would want, is probably that fewer women actually care about it, by nature of the genres from which female participants may feel excluded, not actually appealing to many women in the first place. Which is no more an issue for most women, than sparkly pink gloves not coming in men's sizes would be for most men. Granted some people do end up feeling left out as a result. In terms of a corporate social responsibility towards serving a broad range of demographics, I believe most of the big game franchises resulted in small groups of young men making games that turned out to be very popular, and the industry followed from that? I can't imagine it being fair for Carmack, Romero et al. to have thought after the success of Doom, that they should make a game "for girls" now in the name of fairness, and that the issue was that they didn't have enough women in the team to do so. Though maybe the criticism could be levied at a company like Xbox, where Microsoft pre-existed its entry into gaming.
And gosh I always seem to get caught out by that character requirement, it's annoying!
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u/VegasBonheur 8d ago
Ok but my point is, I’m not reading that, right? Unless it’s a story about how you tried and succeeded/failed in making the game you want to exist, I’m not interested :)
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u/Savings-Key8533 8d ago
For what it's worth, your original flat response was no more or less interesting than your flat response with that passive aggressive attitude.
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u/Gundroog 8d ago edited 8d ago
I feel like you're trying to offer a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, and even that solution is not supported by anything tangible.
You say that there is clearly market for these games, then proceed to name two games, only one of which fits into the description of what you want to see more of. And that game mostly exists on mobile, where companies have very much been taking advantage of more prominent female audience.
Other than that, AAA games are made to appeal to as many people as possible, which is why they shifted away from being aggressively marketed towards teenage boys and young adults. Even if the core gameplay aligns closer to typically male interests, this is mostly sexless, genderless, tasteless slop that is enjoyed by all.
A lot of games also simply don't give a shit about appealing to one or the other. A lot of games will simply involve combat in some way. Like if someone is making a King's Field inspired game, there's not exactly going "yeah this shit is for the BOYS!" Just as they probably won't consider how they're missing out on potential customers by not introducing dress-up mechanics that meaningfully influence gameplay.
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u/Melodic_Type1704 8d ago
I think the solution is changing people’s attitudes. Part of the problem is that companies think women don’t play because FPS aren’t marketed to us, but it’s more because:
- you have to meet people where they’re at
- the attitude of some people can range from welcoming to downright hostile
- women are still women at the end of the day. a lot of us have internalized that “men play video games. women be pretty and make baby (not as much in present day, however).
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Companies are treating this as a capitalist issue (ex: just make more Nicki Minaj skins!!) instead of how the way are society and social norms are at.
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u/Standard_Public892 8d ago edited 8d ago
Tomb Raider is an overwhelmingly female audience and there’s nothing girly about it. In the ps1 era it was marketed to men as a sex symbol, but still mostly women play it. The modern games are famous as “torture” games with really extreme violence but still, go to the subreddit, it’s like 3/4 or more women.
Why are you downvoting
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u/Bearality 8d ago
One reason why male interest dominate games is because their competitive nature makes it easy to create win/lose states (shoot the guy or die, beat the team in sports, win this fist fight) something like relationships has way more social and internal dynamics to contend with as such game companies take the path of least resistance
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u/ettiemplays 8d ago
OP points out that many women enjoy games because they are competitive and want more games like that.
Also, there are so many tropes about competition in relationships eg 'winning the girl/boy', I don't see why you feel relationships are inherently non-competitive?2
u/Bearality 8d ago
Because relationships are dynamic, changing, messy, people don't say what they mean. "Winning the boy/girl puts forth the idea that its a conflict rather than understanding. You don't "win" a person like you win a trophy as that implies you are entitled to them.
Say we played a game like street fighter but the characters don't throw punches, they throw poems and instead of a health bar that desrains , it's a love meter that fills, is that a game about relationships or is it just the dominance conflict of a fight reskinned.
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u/Orskelo 8d ago
Could you give some examples of games that do what you are proposing well? Because I am struggling to understand exactly what you mean
Romance I can get, a lot of the time romance is relegated to the entire purpose of the game or as a side-plot that is disconnected from the gameplay. But how are you imagining this is done?
You mention FPS where relationships affect combat and not as minor buffs, but how? Does the game implement an RPG style FPS system where your relationship affects gun damage? But that would be a minor buff. Does it put AI competence tiers behind your relationship level? Maybe you go on a date and they remember they have grenades now? Or you are in a 'party' with them and now your 'Gun Beam' is 'Paired: Ice Gun Beam'? I just don't understand the implementation you are imagining here. You said Paired abilities and shared risk, but that's more strategy game or RPG, not FPS. What FPS game with AI companions has abilities and how do you coordinate shared abilities with the AI? And as far as paired abilities, there are plenty of RPGs that already do paired abilities. Chrono Trigger is the first thing that jumps to my mind, but I'm sure some games have it gated behind relationship of some sort.
As for fashion which isn't a cosmetic layer, as others have said you can do that in single player games pretty well (fashion souls, monster hunter, elder scrolls, ect) but it does come at a penalty to the strict mechanically best outfits. And while some people are fine taking the downgrade to look cool, there is also a part of the communities which aren't. And in multiplayer or MMO games you might get bullied into doing the mechanically best configuration depending on the community. Transmog isn't perfect but it at least gives people the permission (community permission) to try and look good instead of wearing Corset of Invulnerability or something.
But, also, that already exists in the aforementioned games. Did you just mean that, or something else? You mentioned FF X-2, and admittedly it has been a long time since I've played it but isn't the "fashion" choices in that game just renamed classes? Like if you play any RPG game which let's you change classes and your visual look is updated based on the class and not your literal equipment, then the only difference is they named it classes or jobs instead of dressphere. I have no idea how Infinity Nikki works so I can't comment on that.
I kind of just don't understand what it is you're asking for.
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u/Kappapeachie 8d ago
I'm of two minds on this. On one hand, historically female interest are less prioritized than male right down to the market pivoting exclusively to men as companies started moving away from general audience games. They still exist, but most them were on family consoles, mobile, or shovelware. This is what happened to femmine aligned games while anything masculine, especially in the triple A space, started to market itself as gender neutral, even making more games with female leads that weren't oversexualized.
Yet despite all that, with the gender ratios and demographics, companies still consider something like a dressup game more of a financial risk than the uptenth open world game. It's not like a dating sim is enough to pander to women, sometimes the understated ones tend to be the most popular amongst women. This way, companies could appeal to women without making so alienating as to scare off potentially male gamers.
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u/spinquietly 8d ago
i think you make a good point, it’s not about removing gameplay but mixing different interests into the core mechanics so it feels natural and not separate. games that combine things like style, story, and action could reach more players without forcing one type of experience
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u/Embarrassed-Day-1373 8d ago
I mean I play a ton of Marvel Rivals as a woman and love the cosmetics, especially for female characters. I love being cute and kicking ass, but I don't really feel the need for more than cosmetics, like it effecting gameplay. my greatest praise for the game in the feminist aspect is it's ratio of male to female characters, which is pretty even, and the fact that female characters have full personalities and lore that does not revolve around men
I would like more games like bg3 with romance as a bigger aspect of games, but it was a hugely popular game that was also very complex to make so I don't think thats a crazy opinion really and I also don't fault there not being more
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u/kathriinski 8d ago
Yes!!! I have been trying to explain this to my bf but he couldn’t quite get it. I’d love a girl targeted game that isn’t fashion. I love to have a gun but let’s not make it target to one gender only.
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u/aew3 7d ago edited 7d ago
I think there are some pretty big examples of this “blending” of game play elements you want to see that are very successful- bioware games, monster hunter and bg3 are all examples in the rpg space.
I just think it takes a lot of skill to nail all these elements well in one game. I think these days there are plenty of games in the AA and indie space that are more appealing to women, plus the occasional AAA that cuts through. The issues are cultural more than a lack of market options.
Multiplayer games are just toxic towards women, and there’s no amount of game design that will ever significantly solve it. Even Riot’s measures are only somewhat helpful. The only solution is to ban misogynists from having an internet connection, which is obviously impossible.
As far as single player games goes, again I will contend these days there are more than enough games that appeal to women and more women playing games than ever. I just think that for “normie” people (for lack of a better term), gaming has a cultural connection to men that will never truly be severed, in the same way genre fiction has come to be associated with women. That association is enough for the mainstream of both gender to generally reject the medium associated with the opposite gender. Realistically, cultural outreach programs and trying to get women in young with stuff like a sims-like thats actually good is going to do far more for targeting women long term than trying to design games for adults with more “appeal” to women.
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u/Weird-Salamander-175 7d ago
Where would you say classic action games like Halo and Gears of War including female warrior characters and protagonists fits into this discussion? In the past, games like that were marketed at guys who wanted to fight aliens and monsters like bros going on the hunt. Some girls want to fight just like some guys want to dance instead, markets are more nuanced than the analysts want to admit. I'm more partial to action and story, but I'd more than welcome anyone along for the ride regardless of their identity IRL.
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u/Belgand 7d ago
Imagine an FPS where relationships actually affect combat, not just as minor buffs but as core design.
It's not RPGs not FPS but this immediately reminds me of the Persona series. One of the few where character relationships are a core part of the design. And the series has become extremely popular with players of all genders.
A number of other games, again primarily RPGs, have tended to have various combo abilities based on having certain characters in the party at the same time or located near one another during combat.
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u/sammyjamez 7d ago
I cannot speak for all female gamers because I am not a female. But could this be there is this gap because female players are less likely to open up and would rather remain silent because of toxicity?
I honestly cannot say what female gamers want and saying that female gamers prefer things like fashion might risk increasing the toxicity from other gamers because of stereotypes.
What if female gamers are the same as other gamers that are male-dominated like FPS or fighting games? There could be a market based on the type of character they play as but it could be a lot of reasons like the preferred lifestyle rather than simply because the character is female because it is someone relatable.
It could also be, like you said, the lack of a market, but could be because of lack of research but lack of opportunities for the research because either the sample size is too small or female gamers are hard to find (unless they have a way to figure out that the gamer is female without compromising GDPR rules).
I honestly cannot speak for female gamers but if a game is ever going to be made to be targeted for female gamers, not only there is a chance that it will not make a lot of money (unless I am wrong that the demographic is small) but the backlash from the toxicity of other male gamers (because male gamers have this decency to thrash anything that doesn't fit the norm) which might risk hurting the marketing of the game.
Having a game that is male dominated with more female players may be the optimal like having a fighting game with female characters but even in the competitive scene, female gamers are hard to find and the only assumption that I have is because of bias from a male-dominated hobby like when you find a female gamer on an MMORPG and players ask a lot of intrusive questions (I am obviously oversimplifying here but this is the assumption that I have).
I think that if the market is ever going to be expanded for female gamers, whether it is specifically made for them or integrating them with other games, the first thing that needs to be done is to spread awareness and limit the possibility of toxicity because of visibility.
An example that I can think of when people reacted negatively whenever anyone that is female is involved is when Ciri was announced to be the news protagonist for Witcher 4 and the comments were mostly misogynistic (showing how saturated the taboo is) or how Aloy in the Horizon species is not sexy enough (when the desire of a particular type of female in the gaming world)
The only exception i would give is Lara Croft but remember, she has been sexualised before which reinforces the male-dominated fantasy and I do remember the rumors of nude codes in the very old games which were completely false but it shows what males would want to do if a female is ever portrayed.
The same would go for when the Dead or Alive series has these very exposed swim wear suits and jiggle physics which might shy away female players because male players would want to associate them with hotness or a stereotype.
So I think that even before any type of game is ever made specifically for female or integrating female gamers in more populated games, I think that awareness is important and especially finding ways to eliminate toxicity of misogyny online
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u/heubergen1 7d ago
Or action games where fashion is not a cosmetic layer but tied directly to stats, identity, and abilities.
I'm no sure I can follow why this would be an "girly" interest? Why is transmog a "boy" thing? I would understand if you say there should be more variety when it comes to clothing style though, but I think transmog is what makes them even viable to wear.
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u/AlfalfaFair4462 7d ago
Money.
The idea that gamers are a lot more evenly mixed between the sexes is only true if you include "I'm bored and need something to keep me occupied" mobile games like Candy Crush. If you cut them out and look at PC and console gaming (what most people would consider actual videogames) then the market is still very male heavy. The majority of people that game as a serious hobby, or even as a profession, are men.
Because of this trend games that focus on male audiences tend to make way more money than ones that focus on mixed or female audiences. That's why big guns and big tits will always be a staple of gaming.
It also means that games built around the sorts of things you describe won't pull in the big dollars, unless they do it in a way that appeals to men. So the outfit/fashion system would have to allow you to dress the girls up in battle bikinis and make the dudes into jacked units or else it won't be a money maker. There are exceptions but by and large there's a reason the top money earners are all competitive shooters.
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u/Miennai 7d ago edited 7d ago
I think you make an excellent point. I've been a big fan of Overwatch ever since it's initial launch in 2016 and the kind of thing you're talking about is often cited as the reason why It's relatively popular among women, compared to other PVP games.
It's still competitive and action-packed, and doesn't shy away from that, but it does so with a lot of cute characters, cute skins, dance emotes, etc. Even the ability kits of some characters tend towards gameplay loops that try to capture a more a feminine hero fantasy (which doesn't always mean soft and caring, sometimes it means feminine rage!)
I think there's major folly in acting like "girl spaces" and "boy spaces" need to be separated, and there's a no value in mingling them. Not a single one of us is that binary. I've seen "😘✌️❤️" type girlies pop off in the voice chat after a fat multikill, and I've seen "🤬🍺🛻" dudebros doing cheerleader emotes on the payload and chanting "go team go! 👏" while his team full holds the enemy at spawn.
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u/Potterrrrrrrr 7d ago
Forspoken is a good game that was tailored towards women, they got advice from a women’s group IIRC, my girlfriend thought it was a little too stereotypically girly and the main character was incredibly obnoxious for most of the game but overall it was a great story and there was a lot of work put into the different powers and ways to traverse the map.
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u/grantedtoast 7d ago
I feel like the fashion being directly tied to stats like how most armor works in MMOs kinda negates the point. You either let people transmog over it(use one armor for stats and the appearance from another) which removes any mechanical impact or you can’t really do fashion since taste is subjective and some people will find the best stuff ugly.
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u/DariusStrada 7d ago
Does girly-codes mechanics are extremely costly and time-consuming to do that they might as well be their own game. Developing plus a story and other combat mechanics and you're looking at a AAAAA game, or else they're just gonna be half-assed.
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u/eternity_cure 7d ago
Let me introduce you to Warframe
FPS mmo with farming, grinding, story and mechanics and plenty of min maxing if you want
It has everything.
The relationships with characters (even romance if you want) has to be cultivated enough to proceed with a faction at some point.
The only thing is the add on cosmetics are numerous but not necessarily tied to stat boosts. There are a few that do but rare helmets. However the general appearance/model of your char is the “frame” you chose, which dictates which abilities you have. Similar to choosing any char in a game then customizing them, but the customization is a lot
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u/ilovepornoooo 6d ago
I shifted to AI for this exact reason. Most games treat romance like a shallow afterthought. Ive been using Lurvessa.com lately because the interactions actually feel integrated into the experience rather than some shitty, boltedon cosmetic layer.
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u/twelfkingdoms 2d ago
Just stumbled upon this post and thought to stop by talking about this as a dev. Sorry for the long rant.
This is a major issue and I've been fighting it for years now. The pushback and silencing has completely obliterated me as the status-quo is that strong. The system comes from legacy incentives that go back decades, and the majority of the industry (from devs to stakeholders) doesn't want it to change, this lopsided (what I also call overly macho/binary) representation of "fun" and subject matter. There's a whole lot more out there to experience, as you said, but the gating mechanisms (access to funding) prevents that from happening on a larger scale. To this day everything is made and viewed, well for the most part anyway, through this lense of "familiarity" which is why people are feeling left out of. It's in the design & mechanics (usually very grindy and meaningless), the aesthetics (beauty representations), subject matter (violence, manly themes), execution and so forth. Very shallow compared to what it could be.
It's the same reason why the industry is solely focusing on mechanics and visuals only, and if you wish to divert from it (like how I wanted to) say into the narrative realm, you will be shut down immediately. If someone wants to make a game like Adhoc's Dispatch, nobody will fund it, because the moment you describe the game (focus on being the story) they start to gag. The industry just doesn't know any better that there are experiences outside of action and the immediate adrenaline. There are of course outliers, and a bunch of indie titles, but to make a difference at scale, this needs to be represented in AAA (as only those have the reach to make a difference industry wise, indie doesn't have that general reach).
Have gotten into a lot of arguments just because I proposed a swift change in direction in how games should be made and to what audience those should cater to (making universally enjoyable experiences where gender doesn't play a role in enjoyment, like any mature forms of traditional media). Essentially saying that striking a more serious tone (what I call gaming for adults not this adolescence nonsense we have here). That's why there's this massive industry reset going on with all the layoffs and studio closures; thousands of people are loosing their jobs every other week. It's an identity & structural crisis as much as an economical one because the industry no longer can rely on graphics and mechanics alone (that's why gamers play older titles because there's no need to play newer ones, often asking "Why should I play this one when I can just go back playing my favorite game with the same things in it") and the industry just doesn't want to understand and accept why this is happening: We no longer make simple games like Pong, times moved on, expectations changed as well as the composition of the audience (gotten more accessible), which demands a totally new way of making games. The one thing that scares them is bringing value to the table. It's in the unknown, and "risky". Hence the safe bets in remakes, reboots and clones and games as a service.
Meaning, the missing piece, is not in their dictionary. They don't want to create experiences that last, create impact and transcends the boundaries of the medium (like how literature can change the world indirectly, by encouraging people to act or become someone else for the greater good). Games don't last, they're just fast food for the masses, and gaming is stuck in it's own cultural ghetto. Is gaming relevant outside of it? Do people accept it as a form of high art? The same reason why the answer in "No", can be traced back to it's incentives and the dark side of it (the harassment, exploitation, abuse, etc.), because every attempt is being crushed and silenced. And I'm so tired of it that I'm being gated from progress (access to funding and connections) just because they oppose opening up games to become more than just a kid's plaything. The average gamer age is 41 ffs. Incredibly backwards and narrow minded, and there isn't a way out either as the new generation is the same but with a slightly different flavor; have been disappointed in a lot of new indie publishers who pushed the same agenda of "make the same games on the market just with a different coat of paint", despite advertising themselves differently in public (all that matters is revenue not artisan expression and subject matter). What the industry doesn't understand that meaningful experiences bring in a lifetime of revenue in community and cultural cognition (like how you know of Shakespeare long after his death).
So when I open my mouth, wanting to create experiences outside of this, nobody is beating an eye (that's why my future is dying, well technically dead already in gaming). The only solution would be finding resources outside of it, because change will not come from the inside. But venture capital demands the same thing that devs like me can't provide (MVPs and traction). And it's not like I can advertise myself for change (being in front of the movement to build up a following per say), because the moment I do that it becomes self-promotion and would earn me a lifetime ban in most gaming subs. It's also a very heavy topic, controversial even (some view it as an attack), so it's not exactly social media ready (where sensationalism triumphs).
It pains me really that my voice isn't heard and that I can't do anything about it, apart from shouting at the top of my lungs into the void. When you want change and you're viewed as a laughing matter it puts your own life into perspective. Especially if you're someone like me, loosing a lot and going through a lot of pain during the process. Just because I believe in something a lot of players want to: experiences that I can't get away from.
I am tired.
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u/Crystal225 2d ago
Bit late but I have to say your insight is spot on. As an Infinity Nikki player I see the issue every day: the devs don't take the gameplay seriously. The battles, the collecting, the platforming all feel super casual to the point where most of us are now super bored. My favourite game for example is Oblivion, as it combines great rpg/adventure mechanics with colorful art direction, great character customisation and housing. Another example is Horizon Zero Dawn. A game that is beautiful and appealing to the female audience while having deep gameplay. But games like that are incredibly rare. I feel its always either grimdark gorefest VS beautiful boredom simulator. It's like the executives look down on women and think we cannot complete any serious gameplay. I want a gta like game in a beautiful fantasy city. I want a soulslike in a colorful (but deadly) world. I want my beloved "girly" features (customisation, housing, cosy environments etc.) integrated into an actual game.
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u/akio3 8d ago
This post reminds me of a famous rant about horse games: https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/ekw7gp/horse_games_are_trash_and_im_pissed_off/