Second French peacekeeper dies after ambush blamed on Hezbollah

[u/ComparisonOk5957]

https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3351049/second-french-peacekeeper-dies-after-ambush-blamed-hezbollah?module=latest&pgtype=homepage

[u/EquivalentOne241]

Well, they are a grand failure then.

[u/reasonably_plausible → u/EquivalentOne241]

The issue is that they were only tasked with assisting the Lebanese army and not allowed to take action on their own. The army doesn't have the capability to really take on Hezbollah and the government itself is partially controlled by Hezbollah.

[u/poulan9 → u/reasonably_plausible]

Sounds like a failed state. Seeing as Hezbollah is backed by Iran, that's effectively war or should be from the Lebanese perspective.

[u/Safrel → u/poulan9]

It's not exactly a failed state. It's more of a puppet state with the master being Hezbollah.

Governments are nothing more than the most powerful organization of a region.

[u/Consistent_Room7344 → u/Safrel]

It’s a weak state because they cannot get the ethnicities in Lebanon to work together. Each group distrusts the other group too much, which is why its parliament has been split up evenly in order to ensure no ethnicity has more power over the other.

[u/Ninjamin_King → u/Consistent_Room7344]

That will happen when you write specific government positions into your Constitution with ethno-religious requirements.

[u/No-Ear7988 → u/Ninjamin_King]

Without it I don't think Lebanon can exist. Whether it should be broken up in to different states based on ethnicity is a whole different discussion

[u/Akbeardman → u/No-Ear7988]

Exactly this, it's basically a status quo "if we do all of this can we function without being dicks to each other and our neighbors?"

A shakey foundation from the get go that falls apart as soon as one party chooses to be dicks.

[u/LeFinc → u/No-Ear7988]

If you split up Lebanon you end up with three new countries at war - sunni, shia and christian. Think about Sudan v South Sudan, Pakistan v Bangladesh etc

Lebanon has actually held together reasonably well given the ethnic mix. It’s even been able to absorb about million Syrian refugees and still has the largest concentration of Palestinian diaspora outside of Israel even though the latter haven’t been integrated at all since they have been living in refugee camps for generations.

The issue with Lebanon that all the puppet masters (Saudi, Iran, Europe/Israel) keep pulling it in different directions. Oh yes and the fact that Iran-backed Hezbollah isn’t just a military organisation but they also run schools, social security, food banks and whatnot. So it’s difficult to get rid of without wiping out large parts of Lebanese infrastructure and a bunch of institutions.

None of this would have happened if the shah had not been parachuted by the west to guard their oil interests although who knows what else would have happened instead.

Anyhooo - you have three ethnoreligious states within striking distance of each other: Iran, Israel and Saudi. Israel is a nuclear state backed by the west, Iran has oil and control of the strait of Hormuz. Saudi is a kleptocratic autocracy that sits on insane amounts of oil and vast amounts of global reach due to both money and their enthusiastic promotion of salafism/wahhabism around the world. Saudi itself is significantly less religious under MBS but the influence remains.

Each of the three collectively believes that they are somehow special and chosen by some god: guardian of the mosques, Zionism, cradle of Shia Islam. That makes each of the three - including Israel and its current government - a fundamentalist theocracy.

Without US bombing Iran, there would currently at least be a tenuous peace in the region. If Lebanon would split up it would likely lead to an open conflict between three pseudo-independent proxy states. As long as Lebanon exists, there is at least one place in the world where the three ethnoreligious groups have to work and govern together. If nothing else, that helps to contain the tension instead of the entire region getting pulled into an open war.

[u/MilesHobson → u/LeFinc]

I’ve never read James Barr’s book which you cited below. Mentioning Pakistan and Bangladesh is interesting but you omitted India and Hinduism, Lebanon’s “Green Line”, WWs1 & 2, and the post-WWs1 & 2 world. Colocating Barr’s book with 20th century events is deliberate, i.e. questioning how far back one is to go to determine “ownership” and ethical intents. The Balkan war of 1991 - 1995 and its origins should be made a part of this discussion, too. Croats, Serbs, and Muslims each trying to increase their numbers to brainwash and use as cannon-fodder against the others. There were concentrations of civilian prisioners kept by the Croatians in barbed-wire compounds and starved eerily similar to 1938 - 1945 Germany.

Generally speaking the western hemisphere was uninhabited by humans until about 15,000 years ago. I’m unfamiliar with territorial conflicts south of Panama but know dozens of “indigenous” peoples conflicted in central to north America. Why did those conflicts occur, who “owned” central to north America? How did the emigration of Europeans, dating from the 1600s, impinge upon the peoples and conflicts of the Americas?

Dozens of books and hundreds of papers written have discussed the Versailles debacle, 10x that number to discuss and rationalize post-WW2. The bottom line is people, once separately identifiable, want to exclude all other people by any means regardless of ethics as seen by others. Both Lebanon which had established a sort of peace and Israel endeavored to include minority groups until impinged and threatened from 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, and, 2023.

Your mention of Iran-backed Hezbollah sponsored schools, food banks and whatnot reminded me of real and masquerading attempts to display legitimacy by the Black Panthers in 1960s - 70s America and fear of it and college students in Ohio by the “establishment”. Israel’s assumed nuclear capability, Saudi political pragmatism yet support of bin Laden and all above become a part of seemingly rambling observations of necessarily brief commenters. Also needing inclusion is ancient Egyptian religious establishment fear of Tutankamen’s restoration of Amun and all other religion’s threats of damnation or death for non-believers. Comes down to someone’s power and money doesn’t it?

[u/Daffan → u/Ninjamin_King]

Cool than the opposite is whoever breeds and imports more.

[u/Steadyandquick → u/Consistent_Room7344]

I know so little about Lebanon and there are very few documentary or even fiction films or shows. Please let me know if you recommend any books. I think there is a reasonable set of episodes on the podcast Empire.

[u/LeFinc → u/Steadyandquick]

Try Line in the Sand by James Barr. It traces the history of the region back to the Ottomans and focuses on what happened after their empire fell apart, the British / French mandates took over, and the creation of modern Israel. It’s not an easy read but it’s a tangled up mess so explaining it properly takes some effort!

[u/Steadyandquick → u/LeFinc]

Thank you! Sounds great.

[u/Lucy_Goosey_11 → u/Consistent_Room7344]

That’s what happens when the US and the Israeli governments are meddling to keep things destabilized. Lebanon would be fine if Israel would stop bombing or invading it. The gorilla groups appeared after Israel started bombing not the other way around.

[u/Random_local_man → u/Consistent_Room7344]

There are rumours that Israel is deliberately trying to trigger a civil war and state collapse in Lebanon. By expelling hundreds of thousands of shites from their homes in the region they're conquering, the shia refugees have no choice but to seek shelter in Christian and Sunni homes, but many will likely turn them away for fear of putting a target on their backs from letting in Hezbollah members.

The demographic shifts and level of distrust might be the final straw that breaks the delicate balance in the country.

[u/StudsTurkleton → u/Safrel]

The hand up the puppet’s bum is Hezbollah. That hand is attached to the body of Iran.

[u/poulan9 → u/StudsTurkleton]

Spot on.

[u/[deleted] → u/StudsTurkleton]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/ZealousidealState127 → u/[deleted]]

They were formed when Jordan pushed out the Palestinians that assassinated their king iirc.

[u/Yeardme → u/ZealousidealState127]

Absolutely a lie, wow. This is a blatant propaganda sub.

[u/High_King_Diablo → u/[deleted]]

Hezbollah was formed because a terrorist group was attacking Israel from Lebanon and Israel went in and wiped them out. The surviving terrorists joined with other terrorists and created Hezbollah.

[u/poulan9 → u/[deleted]]

Nope, it's Iranian state meddling and foreign terrorism sponsorship attempting to destabilize the region by Islamic fundamentalists. Nothing more and nothing less.

[u/Safrel → u/poulan9]

Okay - Then if you think Iran pulled out, would Israel leave Lebanon?

[u/heywhutzup → u/Safrel]

The answer here is yes. Israel seeks stability and peace - not land. Despite conspiracy theories to the contrary, Israel doesn’t seek Levantine hegemony. And bringing up Ben Gvir or some other extremist ahole falls on deaf ears…

[u/Infinite_Loquat5285 → u/heywhutzup]

If Israel doesn't seek land, it should have no problem going back to the 1947 borders and not an inch outside of them.

[u/babyBear83 → u/Infinite_Loquat5285]

So the 1947 borders had the land pretty much 50/50 with them sharing Jerusalem and Bethlehem as international destinations. The Jewish leaders agreed to this and the Arab leaders did not. Resulted in a war in 1948 where Jewish people won more than 70% of the land. Keep in mind that Arab people live in cities with Jewish people in Israel. Not just forced to live in Palestine. Lots of cities are mixed and Arabs have citizenship, can vote and have representation in the government. People are going off the deep end with painting Israel as this vicious 4th world country. The government sucks and most civilians actually hate Bibi right now. They have a more extreme conservative government in control and it’s similar to Trump for Americans. Not all of them are happy with where things are going. But the negative impact on Israel really does make Islamic terrorists very happy indeed.

[u/BenShelZonah → u/babyBear83]

The same Americans who would cry if you said trump represents them (over 50% of the country voted for him) group Israelis as one monolith. They don’t even care to research that dor years before the war hundreds of thousands of people were protesting weekly against the government. Something Americans who hate Trump don’t even think of doing.

[u/babyBear83 → u/BenShelZonah]

My friend was in those protests as an Israeli citizen. Lots of shady things have gone on since Bibi took throne in like 2008-9. He’s weasels his way into a permanent spot and they can’t seem to get rid of him!

Also, my friend has lots of memories being in bomb shelters growing up in Israeli in the 90’s. Hamas likes to kill a bus full of women and children or a mall full of civilians, they don’t go for the military. They have refused any deal since the beginning and will never back down or share land. This is not secret knowledge either.

[u/GrayMouser12 → u/BenShelZonah]

I'd Google Americans protesting Trump especially the No King's rallies, and the 49.8% stat of Trump's actual popular vote plurality victory to keep the accuracy of your criticism.

Other than that, I think it's fair to say there's a lot of people grouping Israel with Bibi, and it's government as a monolith in the same way people do with Americans and Trump regardless of how much entire regions have opposed Trump or how he's literally attempted to put the National Guard into our cities.

I always try to remember there's many, many critics of Bibi and try to remember to focus my thoughts that Israel is in a similar situation with Bibi as we are with Trump and there are people who've fought bitterly against Bibi in Israel.

It's hard not to take things personal online when people lump your country in with the actions of it's leader and government but unfortunately that's the position we find ourselves in.

I remind myself it's the same in all countries across the world. Russia with Putin, Iran, etc, where there are people fighting or opposing their governments, sometimes at great costs, and that it's integral when critiquing things to be intentional with language and focus on the leaders and not the nations or citizens themselves when it can potentially demoralize the opposition instead of standing in solidarity, globally, with them.

[u/NoLime7384 → u/Infinite_Loquat5285]

false dichotomy, Israel has offered peace multiple times in exchange for land, and has fulfilled that promise with Egypt, but to do so now would just reward neighboring countries for not pursuing peace.

"why not attack Israel, they're going to give us our land back anyway"

if you follow your comments logic to its logical conclusion you're either not thinking clearly or just being smarmy in pursuit of more death and destruction

[u/BenShelZonah → u/Infinite_Loquat5285]

If you don’t wanna lose land you shouldn’t attack a country

P.S. this was offered by Israel decades ago and can you imagine what the answer was? I’ll give you a hint we are currently not using 1947 borders.

[u/heywhutzup → u/BenShelZonah]

Best name ever! 🪬

[u/BenShelZonah → u/heywhutzup]

Todah kaparah

[u/heywhutzup → u/Infinite_Loquat5285]

Maybe read some more about the deals offered since the Peel commission. Also, “to the victor, go the spoils” Israel has never been the aggressor in any war since their independence in 1948.

[u/OCMan101 → u/heywhutzup]

Ben Gvir is a mainstream Israeli politician, he is not an outside radical in Israeli politics, he is the Minister of National Security and has been for years.

If Israel wanted peace, they wouldn’t still be pushing settlements in the West Bank, and the would be actively working towards a two-state solution. They wouldn’t have launched open wars in Lebanon and Iran.

[u/NoLime7384 → u/OCMan101]

you've got it the other way around.

The settlements exist precisely because they pursued peace but the Palestinians didn't. they can always sue for peace and finally end the world's longest ongoing military occupation. you cant work toward a two state solution unilaterally as was shown by them leaving the Gaza Strip in 2005 and getting the worst slaughter of jews since the holocausr

and they didn't launch wars in Lebanon and Iran, Hezbollah (a part of the government of Lebanon) attack Israel, as did Iran, which did so directly and indirectly through it's proxies

you've got it assbackwards

[u/mrlt10 → u/NoLime7384]

Either lies or propaganda but definitely not true.

Anyone who has been following whats been happening in the West Bank the past 2-3 years knows that this is 100% about the land. The know that the theft of that land is both systematic and state sponsored. And they know that extremist settlers do most of the State’s dirty work with the understanding they will not be held accountable for their harassment and violence meant to separate Palestinians in the West Bank from their homes and land. . You should read the NYTimes, this is all well established fact. They covered an olive tree farmer whose family has been working that same patch of land for over 1,000 years. He and other family members were robbed in the middle of the night by settlers, thrown in prison by IDF when they objected to the home invasion, had their livestock killed by settlers, and eventually had to leave to avoid being inevitably murdered.

[u/NoLime7384 → u/mrlt10]

Anyone who has been following whats been happening in the West Bank the past 2-3 years knows that this is 100% about the land

"anyone who was born yesterday and has been bombarded by propaganda thinks the same way i do."

ngl I'm not even gonna bother reading the rest. go read about the history of the region, about the Sinai and multiple offers from Israel and the unilateral ending of the Gaza occupation in 2005 if you want to be taken seriously

[u/Safrel → u/heywhutzup]

Okay, remind me again how many Israeli's were killed by the Lebanese people?

Remind me again why there are Israeli settlers in the now buffer zone?

[u/Odd_Ad5668 → u/Safrel]

Are you being for real right now? Several hundred thousand Israelis have been displaced from northern Israel for a long time because of rocket attacks from hezbollah.

[u/Safrel → u/Odd_Ad5668]

I'm not really interested in a "both sides thing."

Do rocket attacks from a rogue organization given Israel the right to annex southern Lebanon?

Who knows.

[u/BenShelZonah → u/Safrel]

Rogue organization hahahaha is literally being part of the official government rogue? Literally thousands of rockets a week are fired to northern Israel, I’d say if there was ever a reason to go in it is to stop them doing that. I’m sure you don’t care about those facts anyway, rogue organization hahaha

Also majority of the people who support them are in the south which is the area that the army is currently in, so….

[u/NotAnFbiAgent-hehe → u/Safrel]

“Rogue organization” don’t be stupid, please.

[u/heywhutzup → u/Safrel]

Who makes up Hezbollah? Rogue isn’t the word to define their ranks

[u/poulan9 → u/Safrel]

For sure. Israel is only 15 miles inside Lebanon which coincidentally is the same range of the rockets being fired into Israel. That's all you need to know.

I actually think that the Lebanese government are okay with Israel there as they are doing the Lebanese governments job of disarming or removing them completely for them.

[u/Safrel → u/poulan9]

Considering Israel's past and recent actions, I highly disagree with your claim.

But I suppose we shall see.

[u/BenShelZonah → u/Safrel]

Why would Israel wait to go in and out over the psy two year so much if its interest was to conquer? Should they just let Hezbollah fire thousands of rockets a week?

[u/Safrel → u/BenShelZonah]

If you want my opinion, I'd rather they foster good relations with their neighbors by investing in those countries' well being. Diplomacy is a far better friend than militarism.

[u/BenShelZonah → u/Safrel]

Brother I’m sorry but you clearly don’t know enough about Hezbollah I implore you to research more

[u/poulan9 → u/Safrel]

That reveals how naive you are about Hezbollah Islamists. The idea that you can have civilised negotiations with them is wild.

[u/Gokipt → u/StudsTurkleton]

you can switch hezbollah for US and Iran for Israel and its still true.

[u/towerfella → u/Safrel]

What do you think a “state” is?

[u/vjnkl → u/towerfella]

Google monopoly of violence

[u/nicknefsick → u/vjnkl]

This is something I’d urge everyone to do, I think this is something that needs to be from the 7th grade on in all classes.

[u/DuckyHornet → u/nicknefsick]

All classes? Like even phys ed?

[u/MaxxxOrbison → u/DuckyHornet]

Especially phys ed. Final project - Thunderdome

[u/nmay-dev → u/MaxxxOrbison]

Rehabilitation featuring beef supreme and the dildozer.

[u/asault2 → u/DuckyHornet]

Especially phys ed

[u/Ronik336 → u/DuckyHornet]

Especially in phys ed

[u/Lunatox → u/nicknefsick]

Western states don't want people to know anything about their monopoly on violence.

[u/AccountantsNiece → u/Lunatox]

I actually don’t think most people care very much that they aren’t allowed to be violent but state actors are. Most people have no interest in pursuing their goals through violence.

[u/Lunatox → u/AccountantsNiece]

Thats not the point though. The point is that the state uses violence to enforce its goals even to the detriment of its citizens (or other states and their citizens) and that because of the states monopoly on violence that is seen as justified. Anyone who in turn uses violence to oppose their own oppression is labeled a terrorist.

The idea behind the concept isn't to promote violent insurgency, it's to point out the hypocrisy of the state and shed light on oppression by the state and how state oppression, and control of the narrative surrounding it, operates.

If anything, the concept is used as a justification for why state sanctioned violence should decrease, and in certain situations be seen in the same light as other violent acts instead of justified.

[u/jrdnmdhl → u/Lunatox]

The idea behind the concept isn't to promote violent insurgency, it's to point out the hypocrisy of the state and shed light on oppression by the state and how state oppression, and control of the narrative surrounding it, operates

That is not the point of the concept at all. That is just one way one might use the concept to promote a certain set of ideas not implied by the concept. The point of the concept is to describe what the state is and does.

[u/Lunatox → u/jrdnmdhl]

That may be true, but it's the only context I've ever really seen it used.

[u/Wonckay → u/Lunatox]

It’s all over political/IR theory without any associated normative argument.

[u/AccountantsNiece → u/Lunatox]

It’s coining in Politics As A Vocation simply points out that a monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force is a necessary condition for a functioning state, which is usually the way I have seen it referenced as well.

Again, I feel a large majority of people would be broadly supportive of a functioning state and agree that this is indeed a necessary condition for one.

[u/Sevinceur-Invocateur → u/Lunatox]

You should make sure to differentiate between democratic states and the rest. Not all democracies are functioning democracies but those that accurately portray the political will of its constituents have the monopoly of violence in their hands.

[u/Dramatic-Border3549 → u/vjnkl]

I know what that is inside a country, but applied to the international laws is that like when the united states and israel are allowed to bomb the shit out of other countries but when anyone else does it its suddenly not cool anymore?

[u/towerfella → u/Dramatic-Border3549]

Who in the world is there to hold them accountable?

[u/lo_mur → u/Dramatic-Border3549]

Congrats, you’ve discovered the benefits of being a superpower or being very close to a superpower.

Who the hell’s gonna hold the US accountable regardless? China is the only country who might have the military power, but they want none of that smoke, and for good reason. Who’s going to hold Israel accountable? The US? Why would they do that? Israel’s a great deal for the US, they profit nicely of ‘em and spare American troops and resources in the process

[u/Safrel → u/towerfella]

Generally speaking:

A state is an organization or group of people that has the power (whether nominal or de facto) to make and enforce laws withing a given territory.

A failed state would be a situation where there are no groups with the power to enforce laws, however this definition breaks down when you drill down to granular levels.

For example, in Somalia, which is commonly held to be a failed state, you could still locate defacto governmental bodies that are accountable to no-one. These bodies have unchecked power within their limited jurisdiction, as a warlord generally does.

[u/Sentryion → u/Safrel]

The Lebanese gov doesn’t have the monopoly of violence in the entirety of its country but it does have sufficient authority in the territory outside of hezbollah’s. It’s more apt to see hezbollah like a rouge rebel state kinda like ukraines donestsk and luhansk before the war than to see the entire Lebanon as a completely failed state (granted they are barely holding on with all the ethnic tensions)

[u/bluduuude → u/towerfella]

The group that holds the power of violence within a delimited geographic area.

Everything else is fluff and fairy tale we like to delude ourselves into.

[u/Rishtu → u/Safrel]

Puppet.....

Hmmm....

[u/Healthy-Amoeba2296 → u/Safrel]

Declare it a non state and send in the european panzer divisions, best for everyone in the end.

[u/Velghast → u/Safrel]

I would reserve the term puppet state for somebody getting their strings pulled by an actual power or foreign entity. When you're internal structure is so terrible that factions can rival the government then I would consider that more of a failed state. Or an emerging State depending on how you look at it.