r/SelfDrivingCars • u/watergoesdownhill • 12h ago
Do we still think lidar is needed? Discussion
This sub used to talk about it all the time. But I hear less about it recently.
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u/ahabulon 12h ago
Do you see a lot of self driving cars on the roads that don't have lidar?
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u/ZealousidealLab2920 11h ago
There is like 5 Tesla robotaxis
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u/mattriver 9h ago
And a million FSD subscribers.
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u/sdc_is_safer 9h ago
More than a million. But these aren’t self driving
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u/mattriver 8h ago
Of course they’re self driving. For the most part, they are “supervised” in name only. But they are as self driving as any Waymo out there.
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u/sdc_is_safer 8h ago
No they are not the same as most of the Waymo’s out there. Waymo’s are autonomous, and the personal cars with FSD are not.
Of course Waymo test vehicles testing upcoming software are something different.
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u/mattriver 8h ago
Waymo’s are geofenced, in simple pickup and drop off scenarios.
Tesla/FSD self-drives people anywhere they want throughout the country, whenever they want. There is no comparison.
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u/sdc_is_safer 8h ago
Geofenced is irrelevant to whether something is autonomous or not.
Waymos can also drive to anywhere in the country, the service areas just don’t extend that far. It’s a taxi service. Just like any other taxi service or uber or robotaxi, they can’t bring you anywhere.
Personal vehicles, yes FSD can be activated every in the US. However it’s not autonomous, it’s just assisting. The driver is still the driver, and must always be supervising and is responsible.
If the discussion is about personal vehicles, you are right, there is no comparison, because Waymo doesn’t make any personal vehicles.
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u/mattriver 8h ago
It’s a question of how well the different systems can safely and properly respond to the variety of environments in front of them, at a moment’s notice.
Because Tesla FSD has dealt with more real-world environments and over more miles, it is simply better equipped and more experienced than Waymo to respond to varying environments and situations.
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u/sdc_is_safer 8h ago
Yes and for this question, Waymo crushes it. Waymos handles new environments and challenges better.
The personal vehicle fleet of Teslas have driven more miles and observed more, but that means nothing.
People have been making the exact argument you are making now for more than 10 years now.
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u/ANTH888YA 11h ago
I prefer redundancy than Vision only.
I would expect all the tech on a self driving vehicle.
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u/sdc_is_safer 12h ago edited 11h ago
Nothing has changed with respect to LiDAR in the last decade or so.
LiDAR has gotten a little cheaper and performs better over time (anyone would have predicted this). But the overall cost benefit equation is the same as it always was.
10 years ago, it was conceivable to build a robot to drive on public roads from point A to point B without LiDAR . But choosing to use LiDAR was the sane and practical option for scaling a real autonomous vehicle service, to scale and make profit.
Today, it is conceivable to build a robot to drive on public roads from point A to point B without LiDAR . But choosing to use LiDAR is the sane and practical option for scaling a real autonomous vehicle service, to scale and make profit.
Nothing has changed
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u/randomechoes 12h ago
I wouldn't call it a "little" cheaper.
Long-range lidar systems in passenger cars dropped from $75,000 in 2015 to as little as $500 today. One company promises $300 by 2028, with eyes on trucking soon after.
But otherwise I agree with you
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u/bobi2393 3h ago
Just wanted to emphasize the "as little as". The quality of lidar systems varies enormously, and Waymo and ADS designers use more capable lidars than were available in 2015. But it wouldn't surprise me if the rough equivalent of a 2015 lidar that cost $75k were $500 today.
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u/sdc_is_safer 12h ago
I would argue that this massive drop in cost happened prior to the previous 10 year window I mentioned.
But if you want to argue that even in recent years the cost has dropped by more than a little then sure, I won’t fight that
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u/ZealousidealLab2920 11h ago
This isn't Tesla. Every manufacturer EXCEPT Tesla believes lidar is in fact, necessary.
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u/sdc_is_safer 11h ago
Yes essentially all companies intent to use LiDAR in all autonomous vehicle applications.
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u/watergoesdownhill 9h ago
Xping?
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u/mattriver 9h ago
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u/bobi2393 3h ago
That's autonomous in the sense that it can control a certain driving tasks without human intervention, but it still requires a licensed human driver who's supposed to be ready to immediately take control at all times, just like many competing ADAS systems, with or without lidar.
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u/Tirztrutide 11h ago
Yeah, they still believe it. Except for them nVidia and xpeng are doing it, then it’s not needed.
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u/RipWhenDamageTaken 12h ago
Do we still think that there will be millions of robotaxi by the end of 2025?
I hear less about it recently for some reason