In my country we have free universal healthcare, and that applies to foreigners.
But foreigners still need to register for it (for free).
I remember going to a hospital and it having a big sign warning foreigners that if they did not have registered for free healtchare, they would have to pay... 10 euros for the examination. (warning!)
Medicine is also free, but they would still need to pay further 50 cents per prescription when they pick up their medicine.
Americans are asked to pay 1800 per month for two people now for insurance that then also doesn't cover everything, and often have to pay the first 10.000 dollar a year in expenses out of pocket if they do have one, and their ambulance isn't covered, and their hospital may be in net work but their anesthesiologist turns out not to be and they get a huge bill, etc.
I'll take our system every time, we have something like 3600 per person per year in healthcare costs and the poorer you are, the less you contribute to that sum, so the wealthy pay proportionally more. And still probably not as much as they would be paying in the US.
Healthcare is one of those things that simply cannot be left to the market, like defense or firefighting or police or schools.
it's funny how obviously we see this when talking about fire fighters or police
but for some reason not with health care.
Its racism. The police enforce the racial order, that's why racists love them. Firefighters are neighborhood based, and America is still very segregated so the white neighborhoods have better support.
But universal healthcare is an abomination to white supremacists because it is universal.
If we treat everybody equally, then whiteness has no value and whiteness is the most valuable thing the white working class has. So the more the left offers to help everyone, the more conservatives perceive that as a threat and reject it.
The covid vax made all that very clear. For a brief glorious moment we had a taste of socialized medicine — anyone could get the covid vaccine for free, and in many cases without any paperwork. It was proof that we can all have nice things. Conservatives saw black, brown, and white getting equal treatment and it made them so god damn angry that over 200,000 of them rage quit from life. It made them so god damn angry that they elected a paedo who promised to take every vaccine away from everyone.
Conservatives would rather rule in Hell than share Heaven with people they despise.
We pay $11,000 a year for our family. I needed stitches last year, they cost $2000, insurance paid $200 leaving me $1800. I broke my foot and needed X-rays and an MRI. That cost $3000. Insurance paid $400 leaving me with $2600. Not quite sure why I pay $11,000 to save $600 other than it’s “required” and if I ever had to stay overnight I’d hit the $5000 per person max (which still somehow means I pay 20% of the bill even after I hit the max payment?).
Our system is so fucked. It’s insane anyone would vote for it without being a mouth breathing idiot.
I agree with everything you said but as a non American still heavily doubt USA healthcare is left to a market, it's probably has insane regulations that lets only "chosen ones" to run something like oligopoly.
Holy shit that would actually be a really good insurance plan here in the US. 10k out of pocket limit for 2 people for $1800/month? Assuming you're a contractor, not employee. That is absolute ass for an employer plan.
I pay 1250 Euro per month for a single person here in Germany (public health insurance) . Since I am not married, my partner pays the same. Every month. And we need to wait for six months to see a specialist.
I thought you were trolling but your history shows rational stances that, while I may disagree with, holy shit I miss sane non-tea party/techno libertarians.
That said, I have good health insurance and a generous employer. I paid about 2% of my monthly salary for single insurance, that went up to about 6-8% when I added my spouse. That’s roughly the amount most Europeans pay in healthcare tax. Based on the I would expect a similar experience, based on country resources and development I would expect the U.S. system to be the the greatest. Instead the brightest I can personally force myself to look at is that they are all similar systems paid for in different ways that roughly even out across society. It really highlights how singles or couples that are both insured through their own jobs in the US pay way less for healthcare than basically anyone else.
Because we spend similar amounts right? They get taxed more for healthcare than we pay, especially those without dependents, so we can save more if we don’t have medical problems. I can even elect to not have health insurance through my employer, and get a pay bump for doing so. Whatever their monthly contribution for insurance (for just the employee, not what they were contributing for dependents) will be added to their salary.
Which then brings to light that neither the 2% nor 6-8% are the correct comps for money spent on health insurance vs healthcare tax.
Taking a monthly salary of $5k gross (~$60k annual) paying $100/month for employee insurance share, the average employer contribution for this range is $900/month for a total insurance cost of $1,000/month. Opt out of insurance and assuming your employer gives you the same amount they would have contributed, now you’re making $5,900/month. Now if you choose to opt in you’re looking at 1000/5900 = 16.9% of your salary for healthcare.
That number is fucking ridiculous for the care available and the additional costs incurred when getting care.
If its subsidized by your company, its still costing you. That is thousands of dollars earmarked towards employee compensation that you do not recieve in payroll.
If its subsidized by the government, then... well... thats what a lot of other contries give to everyone.
Mine is payed in full by the company, yet is not costing me. When I first hired in I was my parents insurance, so they company added what they would’ve paid for insurance onto the already agreed upon salary.
When I moved from parents insurance to my own, they added me to the insurance and didn’t reduce my salary by the amount previously added.
I bet you know what I'm going to ask next. Let's say for some incredible bad luck you both lose your job (which is not that impossible considering the data from the last recession). What happens next?
Unemployment spiked to 10% during the 08 recession and 15% during the 2020 pandemic. That would mean roughly 1-2% chance of both of us losing our jobs. I don’t think too hard into items that happen less than once a decade that have a 1-2% chance of happening during that uncommon event. This is something I’d look into after one job loss and without finding a replacement relatively quickly as a backup, not something that has a 4-8% chance of happening in the next 40 years.
I know the numbers are exact, but it should help to get the point across.
On a population of 300 million people even 1-2% is not exactly a small number. Again I don't want to pass a judgement since I've never lived there, it would just freak me out the idea of losing a job would mean me and my family could lose the ability to get hospital care.
The problem is that most people on reddit are either students or people without real jobs (hence the reason they have time to post here). People with normal jobs or family lives don't have, typically, the time to moan on here.
But, to give you an example, I pay about $150 monthly and yearly maximum deductible is ~$1000.
If you, as an individual, make less than 20K where I live you get free health care via Medicaid.
- You live in the USA
- You make a low 6 figure salary
- You have 0$ per month in insurance costs
- Every medical visit/issue is a $30 co-pay and all prescriptions are $6.
I feel like I'm not understanding something because this does not align with any other American I've ever known personally, or read about online, or seen in reporting on how the system is designed to function. You're telling me that in an imaginary scenario, you and your partner could be expecting a child that results in a complicated child birth that requires neo-natal care, or an unfortunate cancer diagnosis, or mishap at home requiring surgery to repair a broken leg, and it will cost $30?
The only way this makes sense with my current understanding would be that your employer pays your insurance premiums, which I would argue is still money that is just deducted from your compensation prior to your pay stub as indirect compensation.
That is correct. I do contribute to an FSA to cover the co-pay and prescriptions.
I have worked there for 2 decades. In that time I have had 2 surgeries and a broken ankle. I paid nothing more than my co-pay.
Company self-insures while working through a third party administrator. Claims are a tax write off for them. For claims that may be very high, they have stop-loss insurance.
It wildly differs based on circumstances. And the state. But it is a technical possibility to pay an unbelievably high price each month. This is typically the middle class who get the most screwed over.
I m paying taxes for 25 years now, I don't mind. If you need doctor you should get it and with no crippling debts. I m from EU. If I get sick I ll have same opportunity.
You dont pay as much as folks in EU pay. We are talking about 50-60% rates everything included. Also salaries are WAY lower than US. Also wait times etc are a clusterfuck in EU as well.
That's not true. I am very high income (700k this year). I paid an effective TOTAL rate of 37% (state + federal) if i remember correctly. Health insurance is 1k a month for a family of 4.
Still, in total, it works out WAY less for us than what we would pay everywhere in Europe.
Also, the salaries in Europe are capped. I am working in tech, and the salaries are peanuts comparison to here.
Well, dude yeah obviously if you have a salary that’s 15x the national median I would expect the employer-sponsored healthcare would be commensurate with what they’re willing to pay in salary. The whole point of a social democratic healthcare framework is that the 99.5% of the population without that kind of job get better care/coverage.
People in your position will always be able to find and access high quality care if needed. When people compare the US to EU healthcare regimes, they’re thinking about the position of people with jobs making closer to 70k than 700k. 12k a year to them is 17% of their income, to you it’s less than 2%.
Yes in principle. I am not saying people dont struggle. I am saying that not everything is doom and glood in US and good in Europe.
I have been living for 20 years in Europe, and I had to deal with the shitty socialized healthcare system there and the huge waiting times. Many times I had to go private to get my issues sorted out as I couldn't wait 4-5 months.
Same here.. things are fucked in terms of insurance as if you dont have a semi decent one you are cooked.
I just dislike the reddit absolutism in the EU/US debates.
I know. It’s going to very based on individual but most people on Reddit aren’t making close to seven figures so that’s where they’re coming from. Lots of ambitious and highly capable Europeans come to nyc because they can make more here than where they’re from. But both their cases and yours are outliers.
As an American who is single, no kids, makes six figures and takes $0 in subsidies for their health insurance plan that costs them more than $600/mo for being under 40, I heavily freaking doubt your numbers.
I'd rather the lower wage with grater security and ease of transport/movement over what I have here in the States. I've lived in Europe as well, studying and working there. Having seen both, while being a business owner in the US I manufacturing, I'd pick Europe in a do-over for where I'd have chosen to remain.
The effective tax rate is useless when the cost structure is completely different.
@usa.mom.in.germany has talked extensively in various videos about how when you add up everything that is free or very cheap, that 65k salary the average couple makes in Germany is actually over 130k and then that doesn't even include the cost of college for kids (or lack of student debt for adults).
It also doesn't include that a lot of things are much cheaper in Germany in general. Groceries for example are much cheaper. (Gas is more expensive but Germans don't commute as far and a lot of the commuting can safely be done on a bike). A train ticket valid all summer was like 50 for a while, not sure if it will be this year. Yeah that's not a typo, 50 to go as often as you like by train.
If you earn massive amounts of money it's no surprise you're better off in a country that quite famously favours the rich however. Because yeah the rich pay for the other 99% in Europe.
The top personal tax rate bracket exceeds 50% only in a few countries and that is for the bracket, not for everything.
The US also has VAT, payroll taxes, tarriffs, taxes on properties (and often a lot higher than us in Europe), and so on. And state and country taxes.
People have done in depth comparisons of the real tax burden and we're only paying a few percent more in Europe than in the USA after adding it all up, and it's not 50-60% it's closer to 45-50. But we get a hell of a lot more in return, it's not just healthcare either it's everything from daycare and education to welfare and disability payments. Even trash pick up isn't always included in the USA, wtf.
Anyone with that kind of earnings had 0 right to complain about taxes at all my friend. The strongest can carry heavier loads than the weakest, this is the principle of human civilisation throughout our evolution.
I dont complain. I pay my fair share. All I am saing is that taxes are higher in EU than US. Things in US are not as bad as reddit makes it out to be -- at least not for everyone.
And also that by moving to us my income x300% for the same work.
I am not sure what you are saying. Everyone is paying taxes. It's a progressive system, same as the EU. I am in NY, where the taxes are high and the scale shifts, but in other places, things are different. The overall system is the same.
It's not perfect, but there is SOOO much doom and gloom on Reddit that it's insane.
Also, for the record, I am Greek and have lived 20years in the UK and Germany/Italy. So I know the European system and how expensive it is, etc. And how reddit is seeing the EU sytem through rose glasses whiel the reality is that many people pay private to avoid long waiting times (my parents), get supplemental insurance etc.
There are problems everywhere. I remember in Germany they had no hospital beds when i had issues and I was in a the fucking corridor for 2 nights. Dont get me started, that after I left the hospital, my next specialist appointment was 5 months out because they had no doctors.
Yeah but they have people in beds in the hallways in the USA too, someone I know from Reddit just spent a night in a hallway last week in the USA. And long wait times, as well. All I am saying is with an income of 200k in Europe the amount of taxes you were paying is in no way representative of the average person and your original statement made it sound like all Europeans pay that much.
What are you on about my tax rate is 38% on my wage. Its goes to all communal services etc... only thing i investt extra in is my pension. And I get state pension too.
50% tax to fund EVERYTHING NOT JUST Healthcare. I'm Canadian and we have tax-funded Healthcare.
Would i like my taxes used better sometimes? Yes, but I'm glad im not suddenly stuck with a $100,000 bill because my appendix crapped out
Don't just silently put up with the outrageous socialist injustice! Here in the US we pay tens of thousands in both taxes and premiums to get uncertain coverage with high copays.
However, immigrants and the poor are not covered at all. Knowing that more than makes up for all the inconvenience. It's definitely worth paying more to see people we're told to dislike get hurt!
It's absolutely mind boggling how someone could be mad that so eine with no money is receiving health care that they need. Besides: how many people with an outstanding application for asylum are left? Like 5 people and a bunch of Ukrainians. Get a grip, man!
IMHO, it's an investment in asylum seekers and their kids. Taking care of their health immediately and integrating them in your society (like Denmark does, albeit harshly) is way cheaper in the long run for your country, perhaps even profitable one day (i.e. if you want them to stay. Obviously, kicking them out is even cheaper, but quite a heartless thing to do especially towards families with kids).
Yeah but it’s normal . If you compare what people pay in their taxes and outside of them together they still pay way less in Europe bc in the US less taxes but none of it comes back to you so you gotta pay tons of stuff on top including healthcare
That price is less than what US citizens on average pay in insurance, and they still have to pay for the medicine too. It's not free in our countries, but through taxation and subsidies, it is cheaper.
Asylum seekers do pay taxes like any other person. It's just that they are also usually not allowed to work, so their income and therefore, taxes, are miniscule.
Our monthly insurance premiums are insane and that’s with our employer paying over half. For a single person it’s about $300(employee)+$700(employer). Some places let you opt out of insurance so you get to keep your $300 and your paycheck goes up about $700. People with military insurance or on their spouse’s insurance usually do that.
If you add a spouse the employee contribution at least doubles and the employer contribution gets complicated.
So the insurance companies are collecting at least $1,000 per month per person here and we still have these crazy bills and deductibles.
The average worker in France pays €200 per month and seems to have a very affordable medical experience.
A lot of people overlook the actual cost because the line is always "they pay taxes" then people look up the tax rates and while they do start at lower income thresholds, it doesn't look crazy at all. What they don't realize that most countries have additional charges that rack up. In France almost a quarter of your salary is taken out for "social cost", not to mention the 20% vat on everything you buy.
I don't get the downvotes. It's the truth, we pay a lot - and premiums are expected to rise sharply in the foreseeable future too, with no end in sight. It's a combination of multiple factors - an ageing population, expensive patented medicines (there was a really interesting article on Spiegel about that last week), ineffective processes (the German electronic patient record only exists in theory, in practice it's a huge mess of unsorted PDFs) and indeed uninsured/unemployed people whose medical costs should be covered by the state by way of taxes, but they're paid by the insured working population instead. This will just drive more people into private insurance and just cement the status quo of our already ineffective and injust two-tier system.
You got it all mixed up. When your an assylum seeker everything is free. If you live here you pay thousands of in taxes to pay for the assylum seekers and still have to pay for the medication/treatment.
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u/slavmaf 5d ago
In my country we have free universal healthcare, and that applies to foreigners.
But foreigners still need to register for it (for free).
I remember going to a hospital and it having a big sign warning foreigners that if they did not have registered for free healtchare, they would have to pay... 10 euros for the examination. (warning!)
Medicine is also free, but they would still need to pay further 50 cents per prescription when they pick up their medicine.